Footwork length

[Allen Evans]

Anyone have more details on Beck's system?

Not much has been written about the foil system in the US, though Beck and Barth's book describes it and the epee system in a superficial way. For epee, I have been using this reference, though I cannot guarantee it is a 100 percent accurate reflection of the method.

AE

[RITFencing]

Anyone have more details on Beck's system?

I've had some of exposure to it, what do you want to know?

[oldguy31]

Well, anything you could pass on would be interesting. What preparatory actions are used? Is there a balance between active and passive actions? What kinds of defensive or counter-offensive actions are employed? How is the timing of such actions taught? Is it a blade control oriented system like the epee system?

Perhaps you can give some example lesson progressions?

Thanks

[RITFencing]

It's very blade intensive and uses the same footwork patterns as the epee system. I do not recall doing any german system lessons with planned remises, and of course the targets are different, but other than that, it's pretty similar.

The main lines of engagement are 4, 6, 7 and 8, and prime is also taught, IIRC. Actions on the blade are done with both beats and opposition. Not much distinction is made between an offensive and defensive blade action, and not much attention is paid to preparation beyond whatever blade actions are done. In a very strict german lesson progression, no disengages are planned after a beat or engagement; any action with a disengage is done without finding the opponent's blade first. Lessons are done from engagement and like the epee system, a strictly german (I should say, strictly Tauber lesson) requires no decision making on the part of the student, just the coach.

When dealing with any offensive blade action, the object is to find the coach's blade first and then come foward; a beat or engagement is made before the first step (the jump being an exception to this, as it was explained to me. In this case, the blade is found as the jump lands.) When making it with a retreat, the back foot moves backwards with no blade action, then the front foot moves back and should land as the coach's blade is found.

Each action with each set of footwork should be done 4-6 times, a few each preceding an advance and a few each preceding a retreat. More repition if the student needs it. If you are the one giving the lesson, make sure that the student is ready ffor the cue, but this is not something endemic to the Beck system, it's just a good idea.

That clear things up a bit? The german lessons are really pretty straightforward, but can be very, very effective. If you have more specific questions, I'd be glad to answer them, but these things are best explained in person where they can be demonstrated. Text just does not do it.

[telkanuru]

Paul Soter has a very good set of documents describing the entire system with some modernizations. I'm sure if you asked him he could provide them. I would just post them, but he did stare me down and say "These do not go on fnet", so

[RITFencing]

Paul Soter has a very good set of documents describing the entire system with some modernizations. I'm sure if you asked him he could provide them. I would just post them, but he did stare me down and say "These do not go on fnet", so

Ditto. That's why I'm speaking in broad terms of how the system works, not just posting a lesson plan.

[Allen Evans]

Paul Soter has a very good set of documents describing the entire system with some modernizations. I'm sure if you asked him he could provide them. I would just post them, but he did stare me down and say "These do not go on fnet", so

Paul's a spoilsport :-(

AE

[RITFencing]

Oh, it should be noted that as the lessons continue, there is much more of a separation from the epee set.

[oldguy31]

Thanks for the info! It seems to jibe with many of the german fencers in the 90's, with their strong counter-six beats/ parries ending in flicks!

For those who teach with it, do you have any thoughts on how it translates to the new timings? Still very effective? Any adjustments?

[MdA]

Anyone have more details on Beck's system?

Just noticed this one. I have nothing written on the Beck foil system. Everything I learned was thru observation...it was not taught at the German Academy when I attended. Beck was a former member of the Academy and not involved when I was there. He broke with the ADFD and started his A-Trainer system at Tauber.

I visited Tauber twice. Met Beck once but, had no formal training with him on his system.

Much of his flick system is now obsolete...for foil.

[Durando]

Paul's a spoilsport :-(

AE

That's not the word I would use here.
I mean, thank god such information won't be shared among largely American coaches. I mean, really. Imagine the harm! Cats and dogs living together!

[RITFencing]

That's not the word I would use here.
I mean, thank god such information won't be shared among largely American coaches. I mean, really. Imagine the harm! Cats and dogs living together!

The idealist in me agrees with you, and personally I share just about everything with anyone who asks.

As a former engineer, though, I understand the value of IP... if he's got something that's working well for him and providing his people a competitive advantage, he is doing them a disservice by providing that advantage to the people they will be competing with.

I don't think I would do the same thing, but I do understand where he's coming from.

[telkanuru]

Moreover, he'd prolly give it to you if you asked, or went to one of his camps...

It's his stuff, it's his copyright, he gets to decide the means of distribution.

[Durando]

The idealist in me agrees with you, and personally I share just about everything with anyone who asks.

As a former engineer, though, I understand the value of IP... if he's got something that's working well for him and providing his people a competitive advantage, he is doing them a disservice by providing that advantage to the people they will be competing with.

I don't think I would do the same thing, but I do understand where he's coming from.

ARgh. Perhaps even the Beck estate would agree.... Anyway. Epee has changed a lot since Beck.

[Allen Evans]

Not changed as much in the United States, though, I would suspect, and more so in the men's than in the women's I think.

AE

[Lady Quindecim]

38.1 centimeters

[acaba]

Perhaps you can give some example lesson progressions?

I have an old Word file with some of the German foil lesson plans. I think it was OCR'd from a scanned document, so there are some typos, but you still get the gist.

https://filebox.vt.edu/users/acaba/fencing/
user: filebox.fencing
pass: fencing

Aaron

[Durando]

And Aaron gets it... Awesome!