Footwork length

[epeelion]

Appel is also a very useful teaching tool. If done as just a tap of the toe on the front toe, right before an advance or retreat, it can ensure that you're starting your footwork with the toe. Which is an efficient way to move.

[rudd]

At the time the tape was made, almost all Russian footwork seemed to start with an appel or balestra.

Coaches at this time were also teaching fencers to start a slow lunge, and "appel" in the middle of the lunge, to accelerate the footwork. I occasionally saw it taught as part of a feint/cut combnation.

AE

They seemed to have abandoned the appel in the intervening years or am I just not seeing it.

[Allen Evans]

I don't think it's been abandoned, but integrated into footwork as a whole. I still see saber fencers use it to break up their chains of footwork when making a long chase, and I occasionally see an appel/check from a defender when trying to provoke an attack.

In my last clinic with Nazlymov (a few years ago, now, and full of a lot of beginners) we didn't do any appels. *shrug* it could be that it's fallen out of fashion (much like the cross forward lunge in foil from the 70's and 80's has disappeared) or that he just wasn't teaching it that day.

I still see it as an instramental piece of footwork in all three weapons. It's just not necessary to do it as compulsively as we use to.

AE

[RITFencing]

I don't really use the appel much, but I do teach a lot of footwork from a half advance (and half retreat, but that's a bit less similar to the appel.) Half advance advance, half advance lunge, half advance advance lunge, throwing half advances into long chases to break up the tempo and steal some extra distance if possible.

Similar, but not completely identical.

[Allen Evans]

I don't really use the appel much....

Silly epee fencer!

AE

[RITFencing]

Silly epee fencer!

AE

I've actually found half advances to be really useful in epee.

Fient disengage, for me, works better and makes much more sense at the distance I like to fence when I make it with a half advance lunge.

Much like the fient cut with appel lunge that was being discussed earlier.

[jBirch]

I've actually found half advances to be really useful in epee.

Yup. You'll see them also referred to as "mini-lunges". The epee game is much more conservative in the distance changes then either foil or sabre, so this kind of distance stealing half measure works well there.

Fient disengage, for me, works better and makes much more sense at the distance I like to fence when I make it with a half advance lunge.

Much like the fient cut with appel lunge that was being discussed earlier.

I have no idea what you're describing here...what the heck is a "half-advance lunge"?

Is this a short lunge attack/feint with a larger lunge remise?

Are you describing an action where a full lunge is broken in half? Ie// the front foot moves about 6 inches, drops to the floor and then is picked up and moved a further foot or so to complete the full lunge?

If so, in some circles what you're describing is, indeed, an appel-lunge.

James.

[darius]

I have no idea what you're describing here...what the heck is a "half-advance lunge"?

Half-advance, followed by a lunge. You're spreading your stance out a bit, but it's very useful for hiding the actual lunge if you're using half-advance as a preparation.

I guess it's a similar movement to an appel, but I was always taught that the appel was actually kicking your foot up and back down to the floor; partially for the tempo break, partially for the noise.

darius

[Allen Evans]

I've actually found half advances to be really useful in epee.

Exactly my point. You ignore the power of the appel and the patinando.

AE

[Inquartata]

How can one not?

One can teach epee.

Really, all they need to know is how to bounce. The epeeists in this thread talking about varying their footwork must all be having sabre fantasies.

Not that one can blame them, of course.

[RITFencing]

Exactly my point. You ignore the power of the appel and the patinando.

AE

The patinando has it's place, but committing to an attack from two tempos away can be very dangerous...

That's why in the Beck system, there is a footwork pattern for advance and lunge, not advance lunge.

EDIT: I realize I may be talking out of my bum regarding the patinando; I suppose you could use the first slow step in there as a decision point and then the following two fast steps as the final attack if necessary, but deciding to do the whole thing from a two tempo distance with no preparation to look and see seems like an invitation to be counter attacked.

[RITFencing]

Half-advance, followed by a lunge. You're spreading your stance out a bit, but it's very useful for hiding the actual lunge if you're using half-advance as a preparation.

I guess it's a similar movement to an appel, but I was always taught that the appel was actually kicking your foot up and back down to the floor; partially for the tempo break, partially for the noise.

darius

It is similar to an appel, but a bit different.

As far as application, any footwork can be used for anything you want, some applications are just more common, sensible and effective than others, but to say that anything has a specific purpose and should not be used for anything else in the same thread where retreats are discussed as preparation for a sabre attack seems a bit odd...

[darius]

The epeeists in this thread talking about varying their footwork must all be having sabre fantasies.

Not true at all; I see the most, ahm ... varied footwork when I watch the first few rounds of epee events.

darius

[Inquartata]

Then you probably need to enter a...



Wait for it....





12-step program.





Because you seem to be on hallucinogens or something.

[catwood1]

Chirp...


Chirp...


Is this thing on?

[Allen Evans]

The patinando has it's place, but committing to an attack from two tempos away can be very dangerous...

That's why in the Beck system, there is a footwork pattern for advance and lunge, not advance lunge.

I am absolutely going to stop trying to be funny. Even with the aid of .

But now that you bring up the point, occasionally a "two-tempo" attack has it's place. For instance: the opponent has been maneuvering with small careful steps, picking at the hand and only going deep when "appropriate". At the start of the third period, he's four touches ahead. At the command "fence" the opponent suddenly makes a very foil-like accelerating advance lunge attack.

Dangerous? Sure, but there's a place in a bout to defy expectations and take some risk (something the Beck system absolutely abhors, which is one of the reasons many coaches don't like to teach it). It's one of the things that makes fencing more interesting to watch then...say...a chess match.



AE

[telkanuru]

I still see saber fencers use it to break up their chains of footwork when making a long chase, and I occasionally see an appel/check from a defender when trying to provoke an attack.

I see it all the time in this situation. It's how you make a false attack in order to draw the final attack action short. The exact same action with the exact same timing has the exact same effect in epee, as well. It's just that they don't make noise any more.

[MdA]

Did you get that from this video? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yco_blT5Nkc

Some beautiful footwork in there.

This brings back some memories for me. I think this video was made at the Coaches College in the summer of 1989. Nazlymov stayed over for a few weeks, after the World Championships in Denver.

I have a box of video from that session of the CC as well as the World Championships. Haven't looked at them it years but there is some good stuff in there. Those events had a huge impact on me...and all of US fencing.

I wish Nazlymov's presentations at the CC in 1989 would have been formalized into an American coaching curriculum. Some people might argue that his session eventually turned into a huge marketing campaign for the influx of Eastern European coaches in the 90s.

As for me, I was most impressed with the Beck system for foil, which I saw demonstrated a few weeks before in Denver...by a young Alexander Koch. I filmed many lessons by Beck's assistants during warm ups.

[Allen Evans]

This brings back some memories for me. I think this video was made at the Coaches College in the summer of 1989. Nazlymov stayed over for a few weeks, after the World Championships in Denver.

You are correct, though I wasn't there. I heard about these sessions from my coach, who attended at the time.

AE

[oldguy31]

This brings back some memories for me. I think this video was made at the Coaches College in the summer of 1989. Nazlymov stayed over for a few weeks, after the World Championships in Denver.

I have a box of video from that session of the CC as well as the World Championships. Haven't looked at them it years but there is some good stuff in there. Those events had a huge impact on me...and all of US fencing.

I wish Nazlymov's presentations at the CC in 1989 would have been formalized into an American coaching curriculum. Some people might argue that his session eventually turned into a huge marketing campaign for the influx of Eastern European coaches in the 90s.

As for me, I was most impressed with the Beck system for foil, which I saw demonstrated a few weeks before in Denver...by a young Alexander Koch. I filmed many lessons by Beck's assistants during warm ups.

Anyone have more details on Beck's system?