Dear Mormons- Please Stop Baptizing Dead Jews

[telkanuru]

No, seriously.

[dfranke]

I don't get why this bothers people. Mormons, AFAIK, are the only ones who believe in the efficacy of the ritual. Why should the rest of us think of it as anything besides a bunch of silly people chanting and going for a swim?

However, I'm rather hoping that someday a priest from another religion starts re-re-baptizing people back into their original faith, and the LDS finds out and sets off a cosmic edit war :-)

[mrbiggs]

I don't get why this bothers people. Mormons, AFAIK, are the only ones who believe in the efficacy of the ritual. Why should the rest of us think of it as anything besides a bunch of silly people chanting and going for a swim?

Because it's intrusive and incredibly disrespectful?

I'm not even religious and I'd be offended if someone was baptizing my relatives against their will.

[dfranke]

Because it's intrusive and incredibly disrespectful?

I'm not even religious and I'd be offended if someone was baptizing my relatives against their will.

Upon whom is it intrusive? If the LDS didn't keep public records of the ceremony, you'd have no way of even finding out.

[mrbiggs]

Upon whom is it intrusive? If the LDS didn't keep public records of the ceremony, you'd have no way of even finding out.

It's intrusive in that it's someone dealing with people whom you attempted to lay to rest long ago.

I obviously can't come up with physical harm this is doing to anyone, but I think that people should be allowed a lot of leeway in terms of emotions concerning dead relatives. Call me crazy.

[dfranke]

I think that people should be allowed a lot of leeway in terms of emotions concerning dead relatives.

Indeed. But those emotions are a property of, and the responsibility of, the person feeling them, not of the LDS, which is harming no one. Having had many of my own relatives the subject of this rite, my emotion of choice is utter apathy, combined with gratitude to the LDS for having taken care of some tricky genealogical research for a large branch of my family.

[I_luv_saber]

I was sort of under the impression that they were doing this to their own Jewish relatives. I did only skim it though....

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

"Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database that will make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Moron practice for more than a century."

[Lady Quindecim]

Never mind.

[erooMynohtnA]

Indeed. But those emotions are a property of, and the responsibility of, the person feeling them, not of the LDS, which is harming no one. Having had many of my own relatives the subject of this rite, my emotion of choice is utter apathy, combined with gratitude to the LDS for having taken care of some tricky genealogical research for a large branch of my family.

So if I peed on the Corpse of John Paul, Catholics would be out of line for getting mad? Especially if I isolated a rare gene first?

[telkanuru]

Personally, I just thought the entire concept was too funny to get outraged over.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Personally, I just thought the entire concept was too funny to get outraged over.

seconded

[I_luv_saber]

Personally, I just thought the entire concept was too funny to get outraged over.

lol, yeah, the title couldn't have been much better....

[ESLyon]

Because it's intrusive and incredibly disrespectful?

I'm not even religious and I'd be offended if someone was baptizing my relatives against their will.

LDS members believe that through baptism of the dead, they give those who did not have the chance to accept or hear the gospel here on earth are given the opportunity in the spirit world. The person who has died is free to accept or reject the baptism, but it is important that they receive that opportunity to do so. Mormons hold their ancestors and their heritage in high regard, as is evident in the extensive geneology research the church has done. It is considered a great honor in the church to be a part of these baptisms, and only those members who are deemed morally and spiritually clean enough by the leaders of the church are allowed to participate in these ceremonies. It is in no way meant to disrespect those who have passed on, quite the contrary. And of course, as stated earlier, those who the baptisms are performed for have the free agency to accept or reject the baptism just as much as any of us here today can say yes or no to being baptized into the church.

[dcmdale]

So apparently there is a pre-existing agreement that the LDS won't do this and it is being alleged that they are breaking the agreement.

What I find a little intriguing is the idea of somehow "undoing" it: apparently just removing the record of the baptism isn't enough, they somehow want to "undo" it. I'm not sure what they would look like. Would you stand under a blow dryer and recite their name backward?

[Black Sunshine]

I'm hereby baptizing everyone who posts in this thread into the Church of Black Sunshine.

Don't feel any differently, do ya? The whole thing is silly. But feel free to worship at my feet. I'm a benevolent goddess, if by benevolent you mean sexually dominant and handy with knots.

[telkanuru]

I'm a benevolent goddess, if by benevolent you mean sexually dominant and handy with knots.

Don't threaten me with a good time

[ESLyon]

I'm a benevolent goddess, if by benevolent you mean sexually dominant and handy with knots.

That should go in the alternate definition thread for sure!

[dfranke]

A mormon friend just pointed me to this press release from the LDS:

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are very disappointed over statements made in a media advisory from Mr. Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors. The advisory announced a press event on Monday, 10 November, in New York.

The Church stands by its word. It has no intention of performing baptisms or other rites in its temples for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances where such people may have living descendants who are members of the Church. Such exceptions were noted and agreed to in 1995. The understanding reached in 1995 determined that the Church would remove Holocaust names from its public database immediately, which the Church has done. It further said that Jewish groups would provide to the Church any names that reappeared on the database so the Church could remove them. The Church cannot understand why Mr. Michel has refused now to provide those names to the Church so the Church can maintain the spirit of that 1995 understanding.

The media advisory also claimed that Church leaders had refused to meet and “broke off negotiations in July. “ This is absolutely false. Church leaders met with Mr. Michel in New York on 3 November, along with representatives of other respected Jewish community organizations. The Church’s written response to Mr. Michel and to that meeting is found here. It did not receive a reply.

Church leaders and members empathize with the depth of feeling of all Jews regarding the Holocaust. Such regard and empathy have motivated the Church to remain in talks about this subject for so many years. However, with his press conference, Mr. Michel seems to have unilaterally terminated those discussions and has presumably rejected the proposals set forth in the Church’s 6 November 2008 letter. Those steps by Mr. Michel on behalf of the American Gathering were both unnecessary and unfortunate, and belie the long and valued mutual regard that has existed in the past years.

[Mac A. Bee]

My parents were German born. My father's uncle and aunt were sent to a French starvation camp and thence to Auschwitz. His cousin wasn't allowed to emigrate because of her "unprofessional" status - she was a Governess. Also sent to Auschwitz. We lost other cousins on both sides.

This is "goyische nahrishkeit" i.e. Gentile nonsense. We maintain our lineage through maternal mitochondrial DNA. When we die our souls are recycled without maintaining identity. I acknowledge complications for those who are Jews by Choice.