New Sabre Rules

[counter riposte]

Well, I have just completed my first tournament of the season, and had some experience with the new sabre rule of having a break at eight touches of the bout.

While I agree that it is nice to have a break in the middle of a DE bout, I think this rule had to be invented by an epeeist. That simple break in time breaks the momentum of the game, and could break one's concentration during a bout. I watched the first DE bout in which this rule was in effect. Fencer A was ahead of fencer B, 8-1 when the the scorekeeper called for a one minuite halt. The change caused fencer A to lose concentration, so much so that he lost the bout 12-15 to fencer B.

What do you guys think?

[edew]

Originally posted by counter riposte
Well, I have just completed my first tournament of the season, and had some experience with the new sabre rule of having a break at eight touches of the bout.

While I agree that it is nice to have a break in the middle of a DE bout, I think this rule had to be invented by an epeeist. That simple break in time breaks the momentum of the game, and could break one's concentration during a bout. I watched the first DE bout in which this rule was in effect. Fencer A was ahead of fencer B, 8-1 when the the scorekeeper called for a one minuite halt. The change caused fencer A to lose concentration, so much so that he lost the bout 12-15 to fencer B.

What do you guys think?

I think that's exactly the intention the FIE wanted to give: make things more suspenseful. If not for anything else, the dramatic pause will allow for commercial airtime plus the opportunity to fencers to talk to their coaches to determine what new tactics to use. I mean, if someone if being bludgeoned 8-1 and don't have the benefit of a coach to talk to, it can end pretty shamefully, maybe 15-1 or 15-3 unless the break is there to temper down the guy who's ahead and offer the one behind a strategy session.

It's like the 5-point relay format in the team event: it makes thing more suspenseful.

EDEW

[Inquartata]

I too just fenced a tournament where we used this rule. Actually, I had to remind the referee that it was in effect. I found it bothersome, but inasmuch as it IS going to be used I figured I might as well start getting used to it.

Frankly, I think it's a bad idea, not only for the reasons given previously but because it's going to increase the length of sabre bouts and hence tournaments. But anything for the fencers who need their coaches to think for them, I suppose...

[edew]

Originally posted by Inquartata
I too just fenced a tournament where we used this rule. Actually, I had to remind the referee that it was in effect. I found it bothersome, but inasmuch as it IS going to be used I figured I might as well start getting used to it.

Frankly, I think it's a bad idea, not only for the reasons given previously but because it's going to increase the length of sabre bouts and hence tournaments. But anything for the fencers who need their coaches to think for them, I suppose...

What, it's going to increase the length of sabre bouts by one minute per round. Given a large tournament with DEs from 128, you're going to increase it (if it even makes any appreciable change) by seven minutes. At a typical NAC, the amount of lag time, just because of availability of strips and such, is far greater than that seven minutes. I have no idea where you pull your conclusions from.

[135711]

the suspenseful is very close, i would agree. i haven't heard of this rule yet, but it is interesting and telling of the emotional attachments to saber that still exist. they need that one minute. the drama does live. that's it for me, just checking into the board, and found yet another new rule! can't believe it.

[Inquartata]

sigh...

One minute per DE, times number of DE's in even a smallish tournament, does not come out to 7, Eric. If you have 60 DE's, that's an extra hour by my calculation.

[DJ Apostrophe]

The amount of extra time you are looking at is variable... it depends on several things, A: the number of rounds of DEs, B:The number of strips being used for the DE bouts, C: The assertiveness of the referees...

say you have 128 fencers in the tableaux
thats 127 bouts
lets assume we are doing this on 8 strips (makes the numbers easier) for the first round
thats 64 total bouts, 8 bouts on each strip
lets just assume that all the bouts go simultaneously without delay and start and end concurrently
you would add 8 minutes to that round (each bout on each strip would take 1 minute longer)
now you go to the round of 64
still on 8 strips
4 bouts per strip
4 more minutes
up to 12 now
now we go to the rd of 32
lets drop to four strips
16 bouts total, 4 per strip
another 4 minutes
up to 16 minutes
now we go to rd of 16
we'll use two strips
another 4 minutes...
up to 20 now
go to round of 8
down to one strip
add another 4 minutes
24 extra minutes
rd of 4
2 more minutes
26 extra minutes
27 extra minutes for gold medal bout
and 28 if you fence off for third...
this is assuming the breaks are all exactly 8 minutes
what happens if you have one director who lets the coaches talk for a little while after the one minute is up... you are now increasing on this...
so it is highly variable... thats my only point
if my math doesnt sound right... let me know... and i will try to explain myself better...

[edew]

Originally posted by Inquartata
sigh...

One minute per DE, times number of DE's in even a smallish tournament, does not come out to 7, Eric. If you have 60 DE's, that's an extra hour by my calculation.

Double sigh. Most DEs are run in parallel. Unless you have only one strip and have to run DEs consecutively (which means you'll be there all day, and so the one minute extra ain't going to matter). At worst, you need to add four minutes because they usually group DEs into tables of eight (thus, four bouts). So, add four minutes to each round.

Your calculations are incorrect. I hope you're not involved in tournament scheduling anytime soon!

[Puppet Master]

Originally posted by edew
What, it's going to increase the length of sabre bouts by one minute per round. Given a large tournament with DEs from 128, you're going to increase it (if it even makes any appreciable change) by seven minutes. At a typical NAC, the amount of lag time, just because of availability of strips and such, is far greater than that seven minutes. I have no idea where you pull your conclusions from.

So whats the use of the 3 minute pool bouts?? I want a tounament to go quickly, but I also want to fence, esp if i've drive 2+ hours to get there. There used to be 5 min pool bouts.

[edew]

Originally posted by Puppet Master
So whats the use of the 3 minute pool bouts???? I want a tounament to go quickly, but I also want to fence damn it!!!, esp if i've drive 2+ hours to get there. There used to be 5 min pool bouts.

For you, we'll make the sabre pool bouts 20 minutes. Go ahead and see if you can make 45 seconds net time elapse. The best way to make the most of your 2+ hours of driving is to win the tournament. Otherwise, if you think it's worth it to measure your pleasure in fencing by the amount of time you fence, maybe you should do epee instead. Or live closer.

[Inquartata]

See DJ Apostrophe's post, above yours, Eric.

I realize that your roots are firmly sunk into Officialdom and that therefore all of their decisions seem eminently sensible to you, but try to remember back to when you were just a fencer.

[Peach]

Arithmetic aside, they already rush the sabre anyway, so to me it's nice to have a little breathing room with the 8 touch rule. Sabre is so brisk they figure they can get it out of the way quickly, so the refs are always saying "Ready-fence-halt-on guard-ready-fence" like they're the Road Runner. There's only so often my socks can fall down before they make me tie 'em up <grin>.

Hey, I'm old, I need all the thinking and breathing time I can get.

[Puppet Master]

Originally posted by edew
For you, we'll make the sabre pool bouts 20 minutes. Go ahead and see if you can make 45 seconds net time elapse.

I don't fence saber, but why make foil and epee like it with short pool bouts??

The best way to make the most of your 2+ hours of driving is to win the tournament.

I often do go a long way in the de. But to run us on and off the strip in pools cheapens the experience, and hinders what the pools are supposed to do, seed the de sheet accurately. And with them not advancing the winners score to 5, this can hurt parry-reposters, i'm not one of them but know ppl who are. Most down time is caused by lack of strips or directors, not long pool bouts.

Otherwise, if you think it's worth it to measure your pleasure in fencing by the amount of time you fence, maybe you should do epee instead. Or live closer. [/B]

[edew]

Originally posted by Inquartata
See DJ Apostrophe's post, above yours, Eric.

I realize that your roots are firmly sunk into Officialdom and that therefore all of their decisions seem eminently sensible to you, but try to remember back to when you were just a fencer.

I am primarily a fencer. Along with being a fencer, I am also a tournament organizer, a referee, and division officer. I am very well aware of the time-delays and the amount of time it takes to run events. I am very well aware of how to schedule events so that you don't get conflicts, so that you can maximize the use of the referees and the strips. I can run 40-person tournaments on 4 strips with efficiency.

That said, the extra one-minute in sabre is just plain noise. It wouldn't affect the scheduling process in any significant way. There are many other happenings that go on at a tournament that will affect the timing of the tournament.

DJ's calculations are, still, incorrect. If you have 128 fencers, you will not use 8 strips. You will use 16 strips. Eight fencers on each strip, seven bouts total per strip. That's seven minutes longer. At the end, you have 16 fencers, which are then put on four strips, two bouts on each strip, for another two extra minutes. Now, you have a final of eight, still on four strips, and so far, you've added nine minutes total to the whole DE round.

The quarter finals adds a minute. The semi-finals add another minute. The gold-medal bout adds the third minute. Twelve total extra minutes for running a DE of 128, assuming you run bouts in parallel. Hope you don't miss your bus home.

The difference of which strip finishes first, and then allowing for the ten-minute rest between rounds is way more significant than the 10 or so minutes by adding the one-minute breaks.

[edew]

Originally posted by Puppet Master


I don't fence saber, but why make foil and epee like it with short pool bouts??



I often do go a long way in the de. But to run us on and off the strip in pools cheapens the experience, and hinders what the pools are supposed to do, seed the de sheet accurately. And with them not advancing the winners score to 5, this can hurt parry-reposters, i'm not one of them but know ppl who are. Most down time is caused by lack of strips or directors, not long pool bouts. [/B]

Uniformizing all bouts to 3 minutes is to do the following:
1) Make the time factor more important
2) Allow for some TV commercials
3) Make it easier for all to remember how much time is required. (Don't have to think, "it's four minutes for this, three for that, five for that..." People still ask me if there's a one-minute warning.)

Few bouts in foil, for example, end in time, especially with four minutes. But with three, it makes the time factor more important, and I think that adds another dimension to the game. Good for the sport. Epee will certainly benefit with the three minutes because it will make the game more time-dependent.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Puppet Master


I don't fence saber, but why make foil and epee like it with short pool bouts??

I often do go a long way in the de. But to run us on and off the strip in pools cheapens the experience, and hinders what the pools are supposed to do, seed the de sheet accurately. And with them not advancing the winners score to 5, this can hurt parry-reposters, i'm not one of them but know ppl who are. Most down time is caused by lack of strips or directors, not long pool bouts. [/B]

Because, really, pools don't matter. Pools are the bulk of time spent at tournaments, and the biggest drain on refs. Is it a wonder the Olympic games don't have pools? Pools aren't exciting to watch, nor fence. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the FIE did away with pools except as qualifiers to world cups.

If fencing ever gets televised, it won't be pools, it'll be the finals.

And really, if the USFA and FIE had a better rating system, we wouldn't need pools.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by edew

That said, the extra one-minute in sabre is just plain noise. It wouldn't affect the scheduling process in any significant way.

There is theory, and there is practice. As an organizer, and as a man with a scientific background, you know as well as I that there are often great differences between the two. I suppose we will have to wait and see. Frankly I hope that you are right, but fear that I am...

If you have 128 fencers, you will not use 8 strips. You will use 16 strips.

Always assuming that you HAVE 16 strips. Or 16 strips that are available to sabre, ie not preempted by overflow from foil or epee. And assuming that you have 16 referees to go with the 16 strips. And assuming that no boxes go down, forcing a backlog on another.

As I said, there is theory, and there is practice...

The difference of which strip finishes first, and then allowing for the ten-minute rest between rounds is way more significant than the 10 or so minutes by adding the one-minute breaks.

Never said it wasn't. I only said that this new rule will add to the duration of sabre events, and do so unneccessarily.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by achilleus
Because, really, pools don't matter. Pools are the bulk of time spent at tournaments, and the biggest drain on refs. Is it a wonder the Olympic games don't have pools? Pools aren't exciting to watch, nor fence. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the FIE did away with pools except as qualifiers to world cups.

If fencing ever gets televised, it won't be pools, it'll be the finals.

And really, if the USFA and FIE had a better rating system, we wouldn't need pools.

Ack, don't say that! I go to tournaments to fence, as much as is humanly possible. Where's the attraction of going to a tournament only to get eliminated in one or two bouts? Fine if you're an elite athlete, but if you're going to these things on your own dime you want a bit more for the money, you know?

[DJ Apostrophe]

my numbers were just an approximation... i wasnt intending on making them perfect.. .because there is no way to do that... i was just showing that if you had a tournament that ran all day that the minute break wasnt a big deal at all... more down time is spent trouble shooting body cords, fetching new blades after they snap, futzing with reels, hooking and unhooking to the strip, waiting for fencers to finish staring at the refs after they disagree with a touch... finding people who have wandered off, etc, etc... i think you get the point... the formula i used was just one that popped into my head... in my opinion the minute break does not have an appreciable change on the length of the tournament... and i felt my math showed that... but maybe not... i dunno... but i agree with you eric... it doesnt really matter...

[Methix]

Well, I can't speak for sabre since I have fenced sabre competitively once or twice, but in foil and epee, I very much enjoy that break. Especially if I need a chance to stop and analyze the bout. See what's going on. Once you get used to having it, you learn to keep your focus through the break.