Screaming Fencers

[counter riposte]

OK

I know we have had this thread before, but I just recently had the pleasure of fencing a "screamer" and don't feel like searching for the old thread.

Here's the story:

She screamed through the pools, and I got her in the first round of DE's. Normally, I'm a fairly quiet person taught NOT to scream because it would be "unchivalrous", rude, or plain cruel to rub it into your opponent. By the time the bout got to 10-10, I had had enough, and started screaming back.

It threw my opponent off, made me more agressive, and I won the bout 15-11. Essentially, I did it to teach her a little lesson, and let off steam.

Here's the thing: After screaming for the first DE, I almost found it difficult NOT to scream through the second. It threw my concentration off to the point that I lost the second DE 5-15.

So, here's the question: When is it appropriate to scream?

[achilleus]

Originally posted by counter riposte
OK

I know we have had this thread before, but I just recently had the pleasure of fencing a "screamer" and don't feel like searching for the old thread.

Here's the story:

She screamed through the pools, and I got her in the first round of DE's. Normally, I'm a fairly quiet person taught NOT to scream because it would be "unchivalrous", rude, or plain cruel to rub it into your opponent. By the time the bout got to 10-10, I had had enough, and started screaming back.

It threw my opponent off, made me more agressive, and I won the bout 15-11. Essentially, I did it to teach her a little lesson, and let off steam.

Here's the thing: After screaming for the first DE, I almost found it difficult NOT to scream through the second. It threw my concentration off to the point that I lost the second DE 5-15.

So, here's the question: When is it appropriate to scream?

The short answer, when it helps you win.If screaming helps you be more aggressive, and intimidates your opponent, then go for it. If it aggravates your opponent and makes them fence better, don't do it.

Also, there is nothing inherently rude, cruel, etc. about screaming. I was taught, during lessons, that when I hit I should loudly expel air, similar to a martial arts kiai. I was taught this for the same reasons that martial artists are. To facilitate proper breathing, relaxation, and focus. Being a vocal person in general, it translated as screaming during bouts.

For most screamers, they scream for themselves to release tension, frustration, etc., and when they do that, there is no problem with it. When someone leans in to your face and screams at you, well that's different.

Kinda like when Terrell Owens celebrated a touchdown by running on the Cowboys midfield and bowing. That kind of a rude celebration demanded a retaliation. As does screaming in someone's face...

[Corvus Rex]

The answer is never. Not to be mean, but screamers are usually young or inexperienced fencers. Once one gets some time and proficiency under their belt, they will fence with their sabre and skill, not with their mouth. If you fence cleanly with clear actions, a decent director will call the appropriate action, screaming usually means you are trying to get your slop called over your opponents slop...

A scream will not beat a good old-fashioned parry/riposte... yes, it is legal contrary to popular belief to parry riposte in sabre. The goal in fencing sabre is not to hear a director say 'together' 38 times...

Sorry, seems my post has turned into a mini Dennis Miller rant... sorry.

Fun tournament wasn't it Counter Riposte... Even with the screams of Miss B. Don't anybody write a nasty note, I did not use her full name, it's not like anyone in Southern Cal that competes or coaches doesn’t know exactly who counter riposte is speaking of...

[Jason]

Originally posted by Corvus Rex
The answer is never. Not to be mean, but screamers are usually young or inexperienced fencers. Once one gets some time and proficiency under their belt, they will fence with their sabre and skill, not with their mouth. If you fence cleanly with clear actions, a decent director will call the appropriate action, screaming usually means you are trying to get your slop called over your opponents slop...

At the Atlanta Olympics, there was a test to see which sport was the loudest--or, rather, which sport had the loudest athletes.
The winner?
Women's Foil.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Corvus Rex
The answer is never. Not to be mean, but screamers are usually young or inexperienced fencers.

Ever fenced a World Cup?

Ever seen the tapes that Peter/Eric distribute?
Ever read Peter Westbrook's book where he talks about vocalizing during bouts?

I'm guessing you don't consider all these people to be both young and inexperienced, but that you just haven't been around enough.

[counter riposte]

Corvus profile says that has been around fencing for many years. And if that is correct, I think I have a pretty good idea who he is... right L?

If he is the person I'm thinking of, he has been around fencing for quite some time, including internationally. The difference of screaming "a-passo" to convince a director is a far different from just plain screaming.

Corvus- Yes, it was a fun tournament.

[damianip]

I'm with achilleus: If it helps you and your fencing, yell, scream, whatever.

I'm an épéeist and I find myself yelling on stop hits (particularly ones which I've successfully set up) but almost never when getting a touch on the attack. More than anything, I see it as release of tension.

And, yes, there is lots of screaming at the top levels of fencing.


Paolo

[Corvus Rex]

Originally posted by achilleus
Ever fenced a World Cup?

Ever seen the tapes that Peter/Eric distribute?
Ever read Peter Westbrook's book where he talks about vocalizing during bouts?

I'm guessing you don't consider all these people to be both young and inexperienced, but that you just haven't been around enough.

There is a difference between 'vocalizing durring bouts' and screaming so loud that onlookers passing on the other side of the gym floor pop in to make sure no one is being killed!

As for not being around enough, well I humbly have to draw my opinions from my 20 some odd years experience at the olympics, JO's, nationals and coaching... not from the wisdom of books or tapes.

No, I don't consider the people you mentioned young and inexperienced for vocalizing, but the thread was about "screaming"...

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Corvus Rex
No, I don't consider the people you mentioned young and inexperienced for vocalizing, but the thread was about "screaming"...

It's all in how you view it. Westbrook described it as vocalizing, but then again he was also talking trash during that particular bout.

The top sabre fencers scream, loudly. I haven't witnessed a World cup except on tape (where they scream), but the top national guys do.

The top epee fencers I noticed first hand, Srecki, Schmitt, Milanoli, Kovacs, Kolobkov, Rota, Obry all scream.

Not all talk trash like Westbrook was known to at times, but then again, everyone's different...

[D'Artagnan1673]

I think that the most important thing we should do in this thread is to clarify WHAT is vocalizing and WHAT is screaming.

From that point, I think that we could bring the conversation along better.

My 2 cents....

I scream on ocassion to let out tension in particularly tough points. I vocalize on well placed touches to the hand, I'm an epeeist.

I think that provided the fencer is not trying to be rude, then let them do as they please.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
I think that the most important thing we should do in this thread is to clarify WHAT is vocalizing and WHAT is screaming.

From that point, I think that we could bring the conversation along better.

I mentioned that Westbrook used the term 'vocalizing'. He was responding to a Cuban sabre fencer who threatened him before the bout. Westbrook proceeded to dismantle him during the bout, and used screaming, and trash talking to further demoralize him.

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
I think that provided the fencer is not trying to be rude, then let them do as they please.

It is a perfectly legit tactic to use, especially if your opponent backs down when you scream. I've fenced plenty of people that back down, and against them I scream extra loud.

Then, again I'm vocal, I have hard time being quiet

[Boo Boo]

Counter Riposte, you have no idea how relieved I was to read that you are from CA and not the UK.... maybe I am feeling a bit guilty about being a little bit noisy in a competition last weekend...

No, I didn't win the competition, but I did do pretty well - not as well as I wosuld have liked (but then ambition is no bad thing....).

Other fencer's know that I scream and they know that I have an agressive style, but they also know that it is not intended to be rude or personal and I am neither rude nor agressive off of the piste/strip (I make a point of being friendly and personable).

Womens Foil A-grades are, indeed, very "noisy": far more so than any domestic events. I hear that women's sabre A-grades (in particular, juniors) are generally a multitude worse.

I could be wrong here, but women are generally considerably less agressive than men and screaming can help a number of women to increase how "switched on" they are and to channel their aggression.

Boo
(admittedly one of my screams was more to do with pain of parrying my opponent's flicked foil blade with my elbow rather than the "glory of the hit".... :- ( )

[Peach]

I admit that I make a good bit of noise, especially when I'm cranked up. If I'm really trying to win, my whole body is pumped, and a complex touch pulled off in a fierce moment causes me to yell. My clubmates know that it's a compliment to their fencing, because I only yell when I did something really hard. Oddly enough, I don't do it to convince the director.

I wish I could yell something impressive, but it's a loopy "hey-yo!" or "hi-YAH!" like a half-baked karate competitor, or else it's "Woof!," and sometimes I go back down to the end of the strip after a bout woofing. I'm a freaking loon, I admit it, but I'm so flaming WOUND UP when I'm fencing.

In a couple of tournaments I've fenced, a guy took offense and made a lot of noise when fencing me as if I were doing it to personally annoy him. My reaction to THAT has been to have an attack of giggles, which is probably even MORE annoying.

I admit I do hate screaming. Shrieking, that is. And most especially I dislike shrieking on every touch. Mostly that's because I teach elementary school and have to eat lunch in the dining hall with the kids screaming like that, and it hurts my ears.

[Inquartata]

If there were any way to demonstrate that screaming actually improves a person's fencing, I might say that it was worthwhile. But there is simply no way to prove this. At best, we have anecdotal evidence that some ( OK, many ) fencers THINK it improves their fencing. Not very reliable, subjective impressions like that.

The fact that this top fencer or that screams and is successful does not show that he would not be just as successful if he did not do so; and there is a good deal of peer pressure in the elite ranks to adopt tactics and techniques that everyone comes to believe have some benefit. Groupthink, in other words.

Nor do I think that the kiai analogy holds much water, either. In the martial arts, it's all about force. All of the stuff about breathing, and focus, and so forth is designed to increase the strength and speed of a BLOW. Fencing is not about delivering hard blows. And in any event, most of the screaming in fencing seems to go on immediately AFTER the stroke arrives. Very often it is blatantly celebratory in nature, or designed to sway the referee.

Anyway, I am in the "never appropriate" camp. But you probably knew that already...

[epeefencer74]

It really depends on your opponent. Is he the type that is more likely to back down or get fired up when you do scream. The scream is a wonderful psychological weapon when employed properly. Someone mentioned that she dislikes a fencer who screams at every point. I agree that it is a complete waste of energy to do so. People get too used to it and it is no longer effective.

The scream interspersed between detached aloofness when scoring points can completely throw your opponent off. For example when I score on the attack, especially when my opponent has either reacted differently than I expected or not reacted at all, I act aloof as if the hit I just scored was a given. If however I had setup a really good second intention hit with lots of lunges, repreises and actions on the blade, I scream to let the other guy know that he's fallen into my trap. It totally trips them up. So scream if it helps you fence better but use it sparingly.

[edew]

My way of viewing it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of screaming. It may help some, it may not, and the amount of help is wholly dependent on the opponent's reaction to the scream.

That said, I do wish there is MORE screaming because it makes the sport that much more exciting. Nothing deadens a room full of (newbie) spectators than two guys going at it like deaf surgeons. Without the emotion exhalted from screams, the whole event becomes too clinical.

At the Kendall-Jackson winery, the two finals bouts (for bronze and for gold) were done with uneasy muted silence by the fencers. Ok, the gold medal one was pretty much one-sided and no particular action evoked enough emotion from either fencer to scream. But the bronze was a tighter bout and could have let off a peep or two. Instead, it was like watching TV with the sound turned off.

The silence was deafening. If fencing plans to go spectator friendly, the fencers have to think spectator friendly. A good scream helps focus the spectators to the action so they can associate the action with the results. (I've always said that refereeing women's foil is easiest because you just let them fence, see who screams with determination, and make the call for that person. Everyone will agree with you. )

Those of you who aren't keen to screaming probably haven't been in a room full of non-fencing spectators. It's embarrassing how the quiet permeates an otherwise good time.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Inquartata
If there were any way to demonstrate that screaming actually improves a person's fencing, I might say that it was worthwhile. But there is simply no way to prove this. At best, we have anecdotal evidence that some ( OK, many ) fencers THINK it improves their fencing. Not very reliable, subjective impressions like that.

A study just concluded in Norway, I think, where researchers proved that alcohol effects the perception of attractiveness. Yes, after all that anecdotal evidence, 'beer goggles' are not just a myth. They exist. All the naysayers have been proven wrong.

The point, not everything needs an actual, scientific study.

Originally posted by Inquartata
The fact that this top fencer or that screams and is successful does not show that he would not be just as successful if he did not do so; and there is a good deal of peer pressure in the elite ranks to adopt tactics and techniques that everyone comes to believe have some benefit. Groupthink, in other words.

Arnd Schmitt said it perfectly, I don't scream to make myself fence well, when I'm fencing well, I scream and celebrate. It can be used as a tactic, but often it is a stress release, or relaxation method.

As a side note, tennis pyschologists have actually determined that venting, throwing your racquet, and basically taking out your frustration can help relax you and help perform better. Better than keeping all that frustration pent up.

Originally posted by Inquartata

Nor do I think that the kiai analogy holds much water, either. In the martial arts, it's all about force. All of the stuff about breathing, and focus, and so forth is designed to increase the strength and speed of a BLOW. Fencing is not about delivering hard blows. And in any event, most of the screaming in fencing seems to go on immediately AFTER the stroke arrives. Very often it is blatantly celebratory in nature, or designed to sway the referee.

I said similar to, not exactly like. The point was to focus your energy, like a kiai, and help esure proper breathing and relaxation, like a kiai. And yes, it turns into a celebratory action.

Originally posted by Inquartata
Anyway, I am in the "never appropriate" camp. But you probably knew that already...

Yeah, somehow, I knew that. But to me. like most people who scream, it doesn't matter to me what you do, only when you force judgment values on me.

[Purple Fencer]

Corvus;

Thanks for confirming who it was (I had a suspicion anyway...she's kinda infamous in our division...I rag on her about it all the time, and since her sister's fencing foil for SwordPlay now, I'll have more chances to bring it up!

Edew...I'm not sure which is more entertaining...a good scream during a bout, or trying to figure out which language you're swearing in whewn you miss an attack!

[edew]

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
Corvus;

Thanks for confirming who it was (I had a suspicion anyway...she's kinda infamous in our division...I rag on her about it all the time, and since her sister's fencing foil for SwordPlay now, I'll have more chances to bring it up!

Edew...I'm not sure which is more entertaining...a good scream during a bout, or trying to figure out which language you're swearing in whewn you miss an attack!

With me, it's always SHOWTIME!

[135711]

maybe we should poll this, but, i've noticed that women scream more than men. then the men join in, i wish they would just let us do all the screaming and shut up. an occassional: 'halt' is enough.