fencing unmasked?

[verynew]

Hello, does anybody know of any clubs near London where its possible to learn / do fencing without having to wear a mask. Also is this reasonably common practice?

Thanks

[counter riposte]

1. Not that I know of
2. Fencing w/o a mask is very, very dangerous.
3. The only weapon you would be able to fence is foil, which is a point weapon, which means you could lose an eye. (Yes, seeing is a good thing)
4. Even Masks have been known to fail (see: www.clfc.org), fencing without one is just plain stupid.
5. It's only done in the movies.
6. Bottom line, they may be expensive, look unreasonable, feel uncomfortable, but they will save your life.

[Jason]

Back in the day, wearing a mask was thought "womanly".
That whole left (or right) arm up thing was invented so you could protect your face with it.

The inventor of the sport of fencing, Dominico Angelo (who, it so happens, had a club in London) thought masks were for losers. (Though he didn't think they were womanly as he was the first to start regularly coaching women... without masks, mind you)

I sadly can't remember who first started using masks.
Maybe Barbasetti.
Maybe Vader.
I don't remember.

[damianip]

Don't be ridiculous. Fencing unmasked is strictly for the foolish, actors (who are not really fencing) or duellists.

Unless you are one of the above...

Wear the mask.

Angelo didn't start sport fencing. Fencing instruction then was still very much preparation for duelling and self defense. Fencing with no mask made sense because it prepared you for the reality for which you were being prepared.


Paolo

[D'Artagnan1673]

Today, nobody in their right mind would want to fence without a mask. It is asking for a serious injury, or death.

Eventually even the old masters realized the advantages of fencing with a mask. Since people had to be extra careful to avoid a hit to the mask, overly complicated moves could not safely be executed. However, more was able to be learned about fencing once the mask was used.

As romantic as it would be to duel today, it isn't going to happen. There is no reason to fence without a mask. Even the so called purists of the Society for Creative Anacronism use masks.

[Moonitic]

If you want to "fence" without a mask, buy some Whacky Whackers from Triplette & have at it.

Or, take stage fencing. Even then, masks are sometimes needed...just ask HighlandDoug's hind end, or our friend Jeff's thumb. I would hate for those to happen on my head.

[Boo Boo]

Verynew

I know lots of people from clubs throughout London and can assure you that no sport fencing clubs would allow you to learn/fence without a mask: each club has insurance arranged through the "British Fencing Association" and this insurance would be invalidated if they allowed their members to do this - it is just too dangerous.

You may be able to "fence" without a mask during a theatrical fencing class, but I haven't seen an advertisement for one of those workshops in a while. They do run them though, so maybe an Internet search will help.

Why do you want to fence without a mask Verynew?

Boo

[Shadow Fencer]

Hmmm, those who fence without masks must have very good rehab benefits that include seeing eye dogs!!!!

[Inquartata]

Back in the day, litigation was much less likely to follow an injury. Angelo did not have to be worried by being sued to a fare-thee-well if a student lost an eye. Nor did he have to deal with umpteen different governmental agencies charged with the task of protecting us from our own stupidities, who would gleefully pile on after an accident. No sane coach today will risk his livelihood in this manner, and no club will countenance the practice...

[Catlady]

The rule at my club is never, ever, even if you're just joking around, even if you're not trying to hit them, even if they don't mind if you do, point a weapon at an unmasked person under penalty of expulsion.

First of all, a mask may be uncomfortable, however missing an eye is generally worse, or so I'd expect. I must admit I currently have both eyes and am not willing to lose one for research purposes, so I could be wrong. Second, you get used to it pretty quickly. In a bout your thinking so hard about other things that you really don't have enough attention to give it. Eventually you forget you're wearing it to some extent. True story: my hair was getting in my face and I reached up to brush it away without thinking. I was shocked when I ran into mask. Coaches will sometimes demonstrate what they want you to do without a mask, but then they usually are holding the blade with one hand to guide it.

[Gav]

Yep, Verynew as Boo Boo has said check out the BFA website - www.britishfencing.com.

It all depends where you are in London. The 2 most succesful are Haverstock (near Camden - my favourite place in London) or LTFC (London Thames Fencing Club - not sure where it is). Someone here has also said that you will always be started on Foil. This is not necessarily true. Some clubs specialise and if this is the case you may find you have to start on another weapon. Check out clubs individually to see what kinds of coaching they provide.

Good luck

[epeefencer74]

Like everyone else, I too advocate the wearing of masks. It is just plain foolish not to do so. Yes it is uncomfortable, heavy and generally very warm, but it sure beats losing an eye. However there is something to be said for having clear visibility, which the normal mesh masks do not provide. If that is what you are after, get the Leon Paul Vision 2000 mask that uses clear lexan visor instead of a mesh. It gives you both protection and visibility, and its as close a feel to fencing without a mask as you are gonna get. It's down side is that it does costs quite a bit more.

[Jason]

Originally posted by damianip
Angelo didn't start sport fencing. Fencing instruction then was still very much preparation for duelling and self defense. Fencing with no mask made sense because it prepared you for the reality for which you were being prepared.


Paolo

Angelo was the first to start teaching fencing as something to be simply enjoyed for its own sake, and not just to get ready for duels.
He was not organizing world cups, but he was the first to treat fencing as a pasttime, rather than simply preparation for duelling.

As for fencing without a mask, it may have prepared you for the reality of duelling, but it also caused lots of people to never make it to their duels (at least not with both eyes).
Not to mention the fact that they had to fence much slower--just out of fear.
They were, in fact, practicing with fencing jackets for a long time becaused they realised that there is some sense in safety during preparation (below the neck, anyway).
Even as the sport developed, the mask was still looked on by many coaches as a weeny thing to wear.
Why? Because people are naturally inclined to silliness.

[135711]

this is interesting, i've never heard of dominico, i'd like to look him up, where can i find out more about this fencer? also, i would suppose, in theory, if you could fence without a mask on, you might consider yourself to be a relatively good fencer, at least in the defense, you'd have to move the heck out of the way pretty fast, and speaking of pretty, i suppose after awhile, they didn't look so hot......

[damianip]

Originally posted by 135711
this is interesting, i've never heard of dominico, i'd like to look him up, where can i find out more about this fencer? also, i would suppose, in theory, if you could fence without a mask on, you might consider yourself to be a relatively good fencer, at least in the defense, you'd have to move the heck out of the way pretty fast, and speaking of pretty, i suppose after awhile, they didn't look so hot......

In theory maybe.

But, tonight, as an example, I was fencing my coach. He's an A. He's been an A for years. I'm an E. I've been an E for less than a year. He attacked, I stepped in and hit him dead center in the mask. He was definitely a little shaken, but acknowledged it as a "nice touch"

The lesson? No matter how good you are and limited your opponent may be, wear a mask.

Paolo

[Inquartata]

Domenico Angelo Malevolti immigrated to England in the mid-18th century and opened a school which taught equitation and fencing. He taught the Prince of Wales, later George III, and his brother the Duke of York, in addition to many other notables. He wrote L'Ecole des Armes ( published in English as "The School of Fencing" ) in 1763. His son Henry also taught fencing and wrote several books including one on the use of the bayonet and a memoir. You might try finding it via interlibrary loan---there are also accounts of him in other books of the day. Martini's A--Z Fencing also mentions him. Ideally you would get a copy of The School of Fencing, but I've been looking for quite awhile myself and all copies seem to be very expensive. I do have a photocopied version of parts of it....best I could do.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Ideally you would get a copy of The School of Fencing, but I've been looking for quite awhile myself and all copies seem to be very expensive. I do have a photocopied version of parts of it....best I could do.

The most interesting thing about "L'Ecole des Armes" are the engravings (which Angelo posed for, himself), showing the technique of the time.
Though he was pretty forward thinking in terms of the sport of fencing and fencing for women, Angelo's school was mostly just ripped off of the French. He didn't actually introduce anything revolutionary to the technique or tactics of fencing, but he's a superstar because he is "the father" of the sport of fencing.

[edew]

A book on british fencing is about as useful as a book on british cuisine. And sells as well, too.

[Sildar]

Jason,

What are you basing this theory that Angelo was the father of sport fencing on? He certainly wasn't the first author to recommend fencing as an enjoyable diversion in addition to the self defense applications; tournaments and trials of skill at arms existed as far back as the middle ages. Fencing for purely competitive purposes, on the other hand, didn't really develop until the formation of the international governing bodies in the late 19th century.

Second, Angelo kept self defense in mind when writing his book, as is clearly evidenced by the fact that he offers advice on fencing against broadsword, Spanish rapier, sword and dagger, sword and cloak, and sword and lantern--unless you believe that these were simply other sports...

Masks were in use long before Barbasetti; the earliest author who recommends using one is Alexandre Bremond, as far as I know, and he published in 1782. However, early masks were not nearly as safe as modern masks, and I would guess that masters in the early days of the mask were opposed to them because it gave the student a false sense of security and encouraged more reckless fencing and a less serious attitude toward training.

verynew-

At present, I have yet to hear a convincing arguement against using masks for modern day training, regardless of weapon style; even those Masters teaching historical rapier use masks now.

[Inquartata]

From "A-Z Fencing":

"Wire masks, tied on with string, are supposed to have been invented by the eminent French master, La Boessiere, about the middle of the 18th century, but did not become at all common until some 30 or 40 years later. It seems that full masks shaped to fit the features, with open eye-holes, had been tried somewhat earlier, but masks of any sort were discountenanced in the fashionable 18th-century salles, as being both conducive to scrappy play and constituting an implied criticism of the skill and style of the fencers."

Under "Mask, All-Purpose", it says:

"The old-fashioned foil mask was a light and rather flimsy affair, the wire and material generally being black. It was certainly inadequate for epee, still less for sabre-play, and stronger masks which covered more of the head came to be used for these weapons...after the Second World War and the simultaneous introduction of the heavier and more lethal electric foil, a much larger and stouter mask was manufactured, its wire mesh being silvered and its other parts white....The use of the mask is obligatory in all competitions and no responsible master will allow a pupil to take a lesson without a mask, still less indulge in free play."

Under "Angelo, House of":

"A celebrated family of fencing masters, originating in Italy in the 18th century and removing, via Paris, to [England]...The founder of the dynasty, Domenico...established his salle in Carlisle Street ( 1763 ). the same year, he published his monumental work, the Ecole des Armes, for long regarded as the ultimate authority on fencing and enjoying such high esteem that it was reproduced verbatim under the heading Escrime in the French Encyclopedie, greatly to the disgust of the masters and pundits of the Academie du Roi, who felt themselves seriously slighted. "

A passage from Arthur Wise's "History and Art of Personal Combat" says:

"Domenico was born in Leghorn in 1717, the eldest son of a merchant. He studied the Italian method in Pisa, and the French method under Teillagory---reputedly the greatest swordsman in France---in Paris....His method was not original, nor could it be. There was little that could be said to advance small-sword play after the work of Liancour and Labat. But it is sound and methodical, and it is still based on the premise that, although fencing was rapidly becoming simply an elegant accomplishment of gentlemen, the ultimate purpose of practice with the sword was the possibility of serious combat."