fencing unmasked?

[haggis]

Martini A-Z of Fencing, HAHAHA. There's a photo of me in that. Anyone looking for proof that I was once moderately slim should look for the picture of two epeeists fleching at each other. I'm the one on the right. (I know the fleche looks rubbish but the photo was posed and I'm trying to get some big air)

[latenight]

If people at our club didn't wear masks, we would all be blind.

Most of our practice is done "at speed".....It would just be a bad idea.

[135711]

i enjoy fencing and the mask is a ligitimate target in epee. i have noticed though, that there are fencers who assume an 'offended' air whenever they're hit on the schnoze. What's the problem here. It's such a great touch! It feels kinda terrible, when you get bonked, but, if the kitchen's too hot, Get Outta the salle. You know I had someone actually COMPLAIN that I hit him in the schnoze, while we were fencing epee!!! Incredible. Then I had another person who became upset because I was getting them on the knee, before I was taught "the Knee touch". It's kinda ridiculose. Think about what D'art mentioned. While it is not possible to teach yourself epee, totally, it is possible, if you have some background, and are somewhat coordinated to find epee targets. There I was having fun, bopping them in the knee the armpit, the schnoze, and getting in HOT WATER!!!!

[Inquartata]

Heh, I once almost knocked a very good epeeist unconscious with a perfectly timed stop thrust to the mask, in practice. Odd, he always seemed to find reasons not to fence me after that...

[Sildar]

Inquartata-

A fine post on Angelo and early masks. I was too lazy to look up quotes at the time...

Counters to the mask are wonderful ways to discourage folks attacking too low; perhaps as much for the psychological effects as for the point you get. I too have had one fellow run his face into my epee so hard he nearly knocked himself down.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Sildar
What are you basing this theory that Angelo was the father of sport fencing on?

For info on Angelo as father of the sport, I suggest looking to Aylward's "House of Angelo", as well as an article he wrote for "L'Escrime Francaise" in 1954, called, "Une Dynastie des Maitres d'Armes a Londres (1758 - 1852) - Domenico, Harry et Henry Angelo".
Czajkowski wrote a short piece on Angelo, entitled, "Domenico Angelo--Great Fencing Master of the XVIII Century, Champion of Fencing as a Sport". It's kind of general, but the references lead to plenty of good information.

As for my goof on the origin of the mask: as I said, I couldn't remember (though, I still think that Vader had something to do with it).

[HilandDoug]

Jason wrote, "That whole left (or right) arm up thing was invented so you could protect your face with it."

I'm surprised that no one else has taken you to task for this, but it is incorrect. If you are fencing "at speed", you will most likely be unable to block that face shot with your off hand, but you WOULD be able to use your off hand to remove the blade from your eye socket without having to drop your own weapon.

The off hand is held where it is so you can use it for a counter balance during the lunge.

[Inquartata]

Well,yes. However, the off hand was used in rapier and smallsword fencing to slap aside or even grasp an opposing blade. Some depictions of the guard position for the old Spanish rapier method especially show the off hand held very much like the classicalfoil position, though farther forward with the elbow near the left temple and the hand dangling near the cheek...

[Jason]

Originally posted by HilandDoug
If you are fencing "at speed", you will most likely be unable to block that face shot with your off hand, but you WOULD be able to use your off hand to remove the blade from your eye socket without having to drop your own weapon.

The off hand is held where it is so you can use it for a counter balance during the lunge.

Don't forget that, before masks, "at speed" was significantly slower than in modern fencing--exactly because no one wanted to lose an eye.

While the left hand may make a convenient counter-balance, it is hardly essential (plainly demonstrated by the fact that in modern competitive fencing, very few people keep their left arm up, and yet still manage to lunge).

[HilandDoug]

....however, at the completion of their lunge, where is the non-weapon arm? It is extended behind, specifically as a counterbalance. If you do not throw your off arm behind you as you lunge, it will come forward, throwing you off balance.

Look at the pictures section of this website and you'll find an excellent shot of a world class fencer with her arm nicely behind her at the finish of her lunge.

I do not disagree with you that the off hand could be used to slap-parry a smallsword. If anyone has done even a little reading on the subject (and I would suggest www.ahfi.org), one would know this.

[Inquartata]

A lot of beginners seem not to have internalized the counterbalance thing. They have been taught to hold the left hand up, thus, and when they lunge...it stays there. Which sort of defeats the purpose. Then it's just another bad habit you have to break.

[I see dead people]

I think you guys are taking his dark, sarcastic, bloody british humor too seriously.

He's probably just hinting on that fencing with mask blows. And Americans have no sense of humor on the side.

[Inquartata]

I think you have us confused with the Germans.