Are you teaching the "Wrong Stuff"?

[Allen Evans]

While it's not ideal, it does often fall to us to be conditioning coaches, strength coaches, agility coaches, etc, and I think any athletic coach should at least have some idea of what they are doing in that sort of situation.

In that I'm First Aid Qualified, but I don't have the time to get a degree in orthopodic medicine? Yes, I agree with this. I do pay attention to the basics, mostly to try to avoid anything that would cause potential injury to an athlete, but at least one of my National Track fencers came to me for advice and I pointed him in the direction of a trainer in order to get him first class help in setting up a routine, spotting, and proper lifting form.

What I would like (again, ideal case) is to work this into regular training. Unfortunately, Dominion doesn't have the time (since we lack a full time facility), so many of my fencers have to do this on their own.

I like NWFC approach. Again, with a full time facility, I would be doing the same thing, or bringing in someone to do it for me, since I lack the expertise. I emphasize over and over again to my fencers that they are athletes, no matter what level of athletism they exhibit, and they have to start thinking and acting like athletes at what ever level they are comfortable with. This can be very difficult for fencers that come from a fencing background in which this was not stressed, or was even discouraged (I know of at least one local coach that still maintains that you should not lift weights as a fencer). Our culture as a "nerd sport" really hurts us here.

In this, Mr. Hurley is on the right track when it comes to conditioning. It's not the complete story of fencing, but it is often not paid as much attention to as we fencers should.

AE

[Tomas N]

Here Ya go.

http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=fgpww&pageid=87

Awesome article. Awesome video.

Tomas

[Mr Epee]

Wait. Now I'm confused.

An athlete's level of physical conditioning DOES play a role in sport?

Shocking.

I'm going to need to review your source material, sir.

Quick, somebody stop the presses. This bs* needs to be spread around.

Wait a minute. Let me flip my hour-glass. Yep, still 2008.

I'm going to go throw-up now. Somebody holler when you've confirmed this dirty rumor that fencing coaches should know more than how to demonstrate parry positions, rhapsodize on the importance of the tactical wheel, and when to best randomly omit articles during lessons. When opponent make such strong attack, we must have prepare counter-attack ready.


* please note that in this particular case bs refers to banal squish-squash

[Allen Evans]

It's easy to make fun of the poor Americans when you're living in an enlightened country like Finland. Please try to remember that back here in the US, there's no requirement that fencing coaches here even know how to fence, let alone know anything about ath-le-tics.

AE

[jBirch]

Somebody holler when you've confirmed this dirty rumor that fencing coaches should know more than how to demonstrate parry positions, rhapsodize on the importance of the tactical wheel, and when to best randomly omit articles during lessons.

Should they? Or should they know when they're out of their league and be able to help the athlete find professionals that specialise in that aspect?

I don't doubt that the other aspects of athletics play a huge role in fencing. What I doubt is that fencing coaches are the right people to coach it.

James.

[darius]

Should they? Or should they know when they're out of their league and be able to help the athlete find professionals that specialise in that aspect?

I believe the answer you seek is: Yes.

darius

[Mr Epee]

I don't doubt that the other aspects of athletics play a huge role in fencing. What I doubt is that fencing coaches are the right people to coach it.

If you're actively looking for other opportunities for other people to take from your student's presumably limited supply of disposable income earmarked for athletic hobbies, then you have found the correct line of reasoning.

If you think that anyone can be reasonably expected to contribute anything meaningful to the teaching of fencing (or any sport for that matter) without a fairly deep understanding of how the body works and can be improved, then you have found the correct line of reasoning.

If you are a lazy f-tard who would rather screw around playing devil's advocate on f.net than pursue a fairly basic (and easily obtainable) level of education in directing activities to improve physical conditioning, then you have found the correct line of reasoning.

Less bladey-bladey

More workey-workey

[epeelion]

F.Net Rule #1: E. L. E. (everybody love everybody)

Now, now, gentlemen.

[jBirch]

If you're actively looking for other opportunities for other people to take from your student's presumably limited supply of disposable income earmarked for athletic hobbies, then you have found the correct line of reasoning.

If you think that anyone can be reasonably expected to contribute anything meaningful to the teaching of fencing (or any sport for that matter) without a fairly deep understanding of how the body works and can be improved, then you have found the correct line of reasoning.

If the secret to Olympic fencing is to simply be in good shape, why bother with fencing when there's a perfectly good gym just around the corner?

If you are a lazy f-tard who would rather screw around playing devil's advocate on f.net than pursue a fairly basic (and easily obtainable) level of education in directing activities to improve physical conditioning, then you have found the correct line of reasoning.

I don't think you're lazy and I like your devil's advocate: it brings a good perspective to the conversation.

James.

[jBirch]

Less bladey-bladey

More workey-workey

Is that from the fencer's perspective or the coach's?

James.

[jBirch]

If you're actively looking for other opportunities for other people to take from your student's presumably limited supply of disposable income earmarked for athletic hobbies*...

*Emphasis Mine

This comment got me thinking...

If we're coaching people's athletic HOBBY, should we be focusing on the WORK aspects when trying to make them better?

What I'm wondering is two-fold:

1) Are fencing coaches the best people to train the student in athletics? (And, by extension, is fencing a good activity to create athletic people) This includes considerations of wealth, motivation and ability.

2) What is the relative impact on student enjoyment (including the joy that comes from winning) of athletic development vs. technical development? Ie// To increase a student's involvement in the sport should we focus on fencing technique or pure athletics?

James.

[epeelion]

I think those question depend entirely on the type of club you're coaching at and the individual students. I don't think making generalizations would be particularly helpful.

[Mr Epee]

James,

You know I love you, but in this discussion you've totally gone off the rails.

Think about your questions for a moment.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

If the secret to Olympic fencing is to simply be in good shape, why bother with fencing when there's a perfectly good gym just around the corner?

I've had pretty good results with that.

[jBirch]

James,

You know I love you, but in this discussion you've totally gone off the rails.

Think about your questions for a moment.

LOL! So...do we hug now?

*grin*

Take a hard look at what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that the fencing coach should not teach ANY athletics, I'm just wondering about their place in the process and disputing that they should FOCUS on it.

One coach can't possibly be expected to "do it all" at the "highest levels of sport".

If we are coaching to the highest levels, then we have to partner with other specialists, IMHO. And it is those specialists who are dictating the regimen that the fencer needs to conform to. Not the "primary sport coach". THEY are the ones focusing on the nutrition or the weights or the psychology.

If we are coaching to the local and regional level, then it is reasonable to expect that the fencing coach can, indeed, do it all, because the "all" isn't required to be all that good. But then at that level, the dedication to athletics has to be balanced against the short amount of fencing time we get to spend with the athlete. Watching them run or lift weights or eat is a waste, IMHO.

It's not that athletics isn't important, rather it is that it can be done when the coach isn't around. And so it SHOULD be done when the coach isn't around: the coach should be focusing on getting the student to be TECHNICALLY better on the piste.

That's what the fencing coach is good at and the unique skill they bring to the table.

Sure, we can incorporate athletic elements in some of the group games we play. And sure, we can require a lot of athletics in our individual lessons. And sure we can have occassional "hell classes". But at the regional stage, we aren't really FOCUSING on the student doing that stuff, rather, we're just ADVISING them to get out and do it.

Just my 2 cents.

James.

[epeelion]

Right. Hence, it depends on too many factors. I can't answer your original question.

I can assure you that the highest level coaches do know quite a bit about athletics, and in large programs conditioning classes, for instance, even if they are just fencing-specific, are built into membership-option structures, often as "elite" options. High level fencers also often go to personal/professional trainers for more instruction, but high level coaches often write out or at least verbally detail a plan of what you should be doing.

[Inquartata]

LOL! So...do we hug now?

.

Without photos, it didn't happen.

PLEASE, let's keep it that way!

[piste off]

I've watched hundreds of bouts of Cadet and Junior epee in both genders and the men are using FAR more blade actions than the women. The women are mostly using distance and timing to attack or counterattack, but not binds and so forth, in general.

Of course foil is the opposite.

In the senior elite ranks, it is the opposite for epee. The women use blade actions more from my experience. Even more so today, but it has been this way since women's epee became popular in the early 80s. Maybe it is a style matchup thing with me, but that is what I've seen consistantly.

R-

[piste off]

So -- given that my observation has some validity -- I wouldn't say that the male epee fencers at the Cadet and Junior levels are less "conditioned" than women at the same levels.

With all respect to Bob Hurley, I can't help that think that there is something more going on here. Not that I don't think that explosive power, agility, and the coordination of hand and leg actions are not important, but there is a tactical and perhaps mental/emotional approach to the weapon that differs between the two sexes.

However, I'm sure that the realization that men and women are different is not a big surprise to some of the members of F.net.

AE

To me, the primary reasons for conditioning in epee are to help:

1. Maintain as high a level as possible the level of concentration that the weapon requires, which is negatively impacted with fatigue.

2. Deal with the intensive change in direction that is inherent in fencing the weapon, which at the elite levels is constant.

I've seen a lot of great fencers that were not in that great condition that I'd characterize as expolsive mainly due to great timing.

R-

[Mo]

There are Velocity Sport and similar places for working out all over the country.
We had to search for a place that taught well reasoned fitness for very serious athletes. Becca worked with Matt James for four years. When ever she was home she went at least four times a week. Her personal motivation kept her moving.
A champion is a huge combination of physical and mental effort. It has to come from the fencer.
The fitness classes taught by OFA injured her and exacerbated her knee problems. Matt James was in contact with her knee guy and the two of them plotted correct exercises for Becca to do.
It was amazing she found Matt. Not only did he give her what her body needed for peak performance but he is one of the nicest, most inspiring people I have ever met. He just has "it." He knows how to motivate and really cares about the people that are working with him.
All athletes need to get that from someplace especially if they can't and don't get it from their fencing coach.
The Momster