Are you teaching the "Wrong Stuff"?

[MdA]

.....
But the fencer's level of physical fitness is up to the fencer. Bob Hurley is in the position to train his daughters and watch their nutrition almost 24 hours a day; where as most coaches have to leave the responsible decisions up to the fencers when they walk off the piste at practice and back to their everyday lives. I would LOVE it if my fencers ran a mile every morning, got a good breakfast, did yoga, and didn't smoke half a pack a day but thats really beyond my control. That being said I give my fencers the physical conditioning I recommend but at fencing practice they're there to learn how to fence, not there to receive fitness training advice.

I think this may hit the nail on the head. The coach needs to give the fencer a healthy dose of reality about modern fencing.

I few weeks ago a guy walked into our club. He said that 30 years ago he had just missed making the Olympic foil team for a small country. He said he had unfinished business and his goal was to make the 2012 Olympics.

We told him he had to start running a mile a day...or start working up to it. We haven't seen him much lately.

...I think getting beat by 14-year-old girls was a little discouraging too! Dan Kellner got thru this part...but he was a little younger when he started again.

[MdA]

..... Tell an attacker that their footwork has to be good doesn't necessarily mean that they'll commit to the attack at the right moment or distance.

... High level épée touches depend on one essential aspect: the ability to change direction at exactly the right moment. In order to do this you need a very strong thigh on your nondominant side. The tactical discussions that we can have about distance and tempo are all predicated on this ability.

This is exactly the point that I am making. Without power, speed, agility, atheticism, "ability to apply force to the floor"....you can not even practice the correct tactical situations to be successful at a high level.

This also requires that the coach be in good shape....to recreate these tactical...change of direction actions in a lesson. As Durando says...I have seen fencers with perfect footwork who are unable to execute it in the correct tactical situation...because they don't consistently practice these precise movements.

So if you don't guide your fencers to a higher level of fitness...you are not introducing the movements that will help them perform.

You don't need have them run a mile at practice. But, you can require warm-up excercises that serve as a fitness barometer. The beginning of each practice can be a mini fitness assessment. Then you send them home with homework. I don't think you should narrow it down to the thigh on the non-dominant side...but I good overall fitness program with running, plyometrics and weight training is recommended....this is what the top collegiate programs are doing.

[Phrogger]

I agree with the notion that top level fencing in any weapon is based heavily on speed and athleticism (remember that workout that Becca Ward was doing with the parachutes?). At the same time I'm also sure that most people realize that many adult fencers are doing the fencing to get the exercise, not doing the exercise so that they can fence better. But I can think of ways that coaches can encourage their students who are ready to go to the next level in the realm of physical fitness.

• Having a conditioning session once a week and requiring students in the advanced classes to attend.
• Talking to their parents about what they should be doing at home.
• Require them to keep a training notebook which you will inspect.
• Educating them about proper conditioning exercises and technique.
• Educating them about proper nutrition.

I've also been thinking about Personal Trainer certification as a possible addition to any coaching certification. That is assuming a coach who does not have a degree in exercise or sports science. Are there any coaches here who have taken this route?

[telkanuru]

(remember that workout that Becca Ward was doing with the parachutes?)

No???

[zenpharaohs]

Isn't that you just coming up with the old adage about good bladework being a poor substitute for good footwork?

The even better adage is that you fence with your feet. I fenced for about twenty years and stopped about nine years ago. In the interim, I took up weight lifting, with a very big concentration on leg and back strength; which has been very effective. I just started fencing again a month ago and I am fencing in epee (which I hardly ever fenced before) at what appears to be a higher level than I fenced in my main weapon (sabre) previously. It's probably too late for me to get to the very top levels, but this could make a big difference for students who are still young enough to get the full benefit.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I've also been thinking about Personal Trainer certification as a possible addition to any coaching certification. That is assuming a coach who does not have a degree in exercise or sports science. Are there any coaches here who have taken this route?

I went with the ISSA Certified Fitness Trainer certification.

It has its merits, but its pretty much just letters after the name. You'll need to learn most of your stuff outside the course of study.

[MdA]

I went with the ISSA Certified Fitness Trainer certification.

It has its merits, but its pretty much just letters after the name. You'll need to learn most of your stuff outside the course of study.

Sounds like the same argument that many members of this forum have against the USFCA and AAI certification.

It seems other certification organizations suffer the same criticism.

[oiuyt]

And don't forget those darn State Bar Associations.

I mean you have to go spend 3 years in law school before most of them will even let you test.

-B

[noodle]

And don't forget those darn State Bar Associations.

I mean you have to go spend 3 years in law school before most of them will even let you test.

-B

i'd throw university degrees into this pile as well

[oiuyt]

i'd throw university degrees into this pile as well

Most people would argue that universities actually teach you much of what they certify that you know. Granted that's not a unanimously-held opinion.

-B

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Ok, I had to find a good video to illustrate my opinion.

My favorite person ever.

Michael Vick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlXp3AxMehc

Notice some similarities to how Michael Vick moves and how really good fencers move.

Ability to accelerate and decelerate rapidly.

Ability to reverse and change direction rapidly.

Ability to change tempo.

Ability to go FAST!

I'm pretty sure Vick didn't develope those abilities from doing slow footwork for hours in front of a mirror.

Its experience on the field, on the track and in the weight room that produce this kinda stuff.

[Phrogger]

(remember that workout that Becca Ward was doing with the parachutes?)

No???

Here Ya go.

http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=fgpww&pageid=87

[telkanuru]

Here Ya go.

http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=fgpww&pageid=87

Dear god.

[jBirch]

Something that just struck me as I revisit this topic is that there seems to very much be a "specialist team based" approach to high performance athletics.

What I mean by that is that there is a nutritionist, a physical therapist, a mental coach, a weight-training specialist, a sports medicine doctor, a team manager and a whole host of assistants.

What role is there for the "fencing coach" EXCEPT to teach those actions that are specific to fencing? Ie// Shouldn't great coaches leave the athletics to others and concentrate on those elements of fencing that are unique to the sport?

James.

[noodle]

Most people would argue that universities actually teach you much of what they certify that you know. Granted that's not a unanimously-held opinion.

-B

i know a goodly number of people who have passed classes without actually knowing the materials.

[RkfdFencer]

She does do some fun looking exercises :-)

In reply to 'Are we training the wrong thing?' - I think some other posters have touched on this in one way or another, but want to raise a point or two from the Epee 2.0 book. (At least something I took out of it)

Starting off giving people a solid technical fencing foundation was mentioned as being good and necessary. Once that foundation is laid, you can then work to pare away the less useful items for that fencer and focus more on their areas of excellence. With this, exercises to improve the hand and foot speed, and coordination, were done.

I may be oversimplifying, and the book relates the experiences of only a few world class fencers, but it seems a coach needs to fit in what I will calll 'athletic training' for the competitive fencers at a point where it will start to make a difference in their competitive ability.

Yes, I am sure most do include some basics and strongly urge more of the fencer on the fencer's own time (and I am speaking out of experience at the lower levels). So, it becomes more of what to trade off or add to the training program, and when to do it, along with what will make sense for the program in question.

Apologies if my response is not clear - it's Monday and I am at work.

[Allen Evans]

Something that just struck me as I revisit this topic is that there seems to very much be a "specialist team based" approach to high performance athletics.

This is very much the case in professional sports. Football -- for example -- will have a number of coaches, each with their own responsibility or area of expertise. These teams also have strength coaches, doctors, speed coaches....and a host of other experts. Why should fencing be any different?

I suspect that very successful fencing clubs call upon outside reasources in order to let the fencing coach focus only on fencing. It is assumed that the athletes involved are motivated to the do the work outside of the club. I know that OFA has brought conditioning experts on board, at least during their summer camps. I assume that this is something that they continue throughout the competitive season with individual athletes.

At Dominion, I have often urged my competitive fencers to look outside of club for strength and speed building, or other conditioning work. I simply don't have the expertise in those areas.

If my club was larger, I would certainly be looking into forming an alliance or partnership with a gym or training facility, to give me that outside expertise.

AE

[RITFencing]

This is very much the case in professional sports. Football -- for example -- will have a number of coaches, each with their own responsibility or area of expertise. These teams also have strength coaches, doctors, speed coaches....and a host of other experts. Why should fencing be any different?

I suspect that very successful fencing clubs call upon outside reasources in order to let the fencing coach focus only on fencing. It is assumed that the athletes involved are motivated to the do the work outside of the club. I know that OFA has brought conditioning experts on board, at least during their summer camps. I assume that this is something that they continue throughout the competitive season with individual athletes.

You're describing a best case scenario here... with unlimited resources, sure, we could all have clubs like this, and with fencers who are prepared to train hard outside of practice several times a week, it's possible to go without and still focus almost entirely on fencing. However, the reality is that the vast majority of clubs won't be able to hire conditioning specialists and most fencers won't go to a gym for 10 hours a week.

While it's not ideal, it does often fall to us to be conditioning coaches, strength coaches, agility coaches, etc, and I think any athletic coach should at least have some idea of what they are doing in that sort of situation.

[RITFencing]

I'm pretty sure Vick didn't develope those abilities from doing slow footwork for hours in front of a mirror.

Its experience on the field, on the track and in the weight room that produce this kinda stuff.

Field and gym work can definitely build these qualities... as can good footwork drills designed to work on direction change, tempo change and explosiveness.

There's more than one way to build a muscle type, and more than one way to create a desired quality in a fencer.

[darius]

Ironically, the time when extra work can have the most impact is when they're the least serious. One of the things that NWFC does is runs a Homeschool PhysEd class, where the kids (ages 6-14) come in the mornings. We play games and do "developmental exercises" which generally improve / test spatial awareness, divisibility of attention, explosiveness, muscular endurance, agility, flexibility, etc. (Obviously not particularly interested in 1RM type strength - we do test vertical and standing broad jump, though)

Now, there's some level of thinking that kids shouldn't be assessed too young. To me, that's bull; we want them used to being assessed by coaches, and while some of the qualities we test can be a bit rough on the young ones, we want them to consider them all important. Plus, you find (and encourage) outliers - there's a divisibility-of-attention exercise that is supposed to be impossible for <10 year olds, and we have a 6 year-old who can do it.

For many kids, we're their first introduction to an athletic culture. We have an opportunity to shape their values (ideally, they like doing the things that will be useful in fencing) as well as their bodies.

Sean's right - we should be able to do at least basic S&C work, at least if you're working with young kids. Note: If you're doing this stuff, PLEASE make sure you know what's going on; your actions as a coach have an impact on psyches as well as knees. Read the CFF's Aide-Moniteur guide, which has some incredibly good resources on child development in sport.
http://fencing.ca/coaching_manuals/a...ach_manual.pdf.

I also agree with Allen; I'm generally too busy to be a strength & conditioning coach for more advanced athletes -- even though it can be fun and team-building to do group hell workouts, my schedule and the club culture just don't allow me to do it often enough to make it useful. (Others have tried, it became a once-every-2-week ritual that was just infrequent enough to leave everybody too sore to fence)

I apparently just did a stream-of-consciousness brain dump, but left it. Maybe somebody will find it useful.

darius