Rude behavior.....

[AngryFather]

I have no idea where to post my complaint. I suppose that this is the best category.

Recently my 10 year old son expressed a desire to fence. My wife and I found a club in our area. We took him to the club for beginner lessons. After the beginners course our son decided to continue.

Well, last night was our second 'open' class. During the course of the evening a young man (in his early 20s) continually criticized my son and made rude comments to him.

Toward the end of the session the young man walked off the 'lane' swearing. My wife walked in front of him as he was coming off the lane. She was walking to the water cooler. Without provocation the young man swore at her.

When I pulled the coach aside to discuss the matter, the coach told me "that they had no control over the adult members behavior and that if I had a conflict with the young man that I should leave and not comeback." I never made a threat, never raised my voice, nor swore at the coach or the young man. Yet I was treated as though I was somehow at fault.

In addition to the comments from the coach, another member told me that the young man was a champion and his behavior was tolerated.

This is second fencing club I have visited in our area. In my humble opinion, being an outside observer to the sport of fencing, I believe many of the participants have issues with self control, anger, and respect toward others. In the brief period since my son developed an interest in the sport I have witnessed at least a dozen unsportsmanlike incidents and we have yet to attend a tournament. I can only imagine how these people behave in an environment of competition.

Thankfully, after witnessing the young man's behavior, my son has decided to return wrestling. In four years of wrestling I have yet to witness the displays of poor conduct that I have seen in just a few months of fencing. Yes, I am aware that parents and athletes in many different sports behave poorly, but I have never witnessed so many people acting with such poor sportsmanship.

I have reexamined the incident and tried to look at it from his perspective. I am sorry, to be frank, he's just a prissy little snob and honestly, given the remarks he made to my wife and son, he should be grateful I did not bend him over my knee and give him the butt busting his mom and dad should have.

For a sport that bemoans its image problem very few seem willing to police the behavior of their ranks. What makes this situation worse is the idea that my son loves the sport, but in no way will I or my wife allow our child to be around such behavior.

[noodle]

there is no doubt that there exist people with attitude problems in the sport of fencing. however, they also exist in many other sports -- i've known people like you describe in every sport i've participated in. please don't judge the sport as a whole or the competitors therein based on the actions of a few.

i'm disappointed in the tone set by the coach and members of the school in question. let me assure you that this is not how every school/club carries on. i suspect that the fencer in question isn't simply "a champion", but instead the reason he's tolerated is because he's "a large revenue stream".

[berghouse]

As a parent of a competitive youth fencer, starting a 9, I have witnessed similar behavior from adult fencers. Adult fencers do not like fencing kids because they are hard to hit, have chest protectors and do not react to fencing actions in a predictable way.

I would not recomend that 10 year olds fence adults in competitions. It is forbidden in USFA sanctioned events. Practice with club members adults, that know and respect your child, okay.

The reaction from the coach was inexcusable.

Sorry that you had an experience in fencing that is rare.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

If possible, you might want to try another club or two before giving up on the sport. Not every salle is infested with a jerk coach and a pampered prima donna "champion."

[SEM Fencer]

[quote=AngryFather;745585]continually criticized my son and made rude comments to him.

Toward the end of the session the young man walked off the 'lane' swearing. My wife walked in front of him as he was coming off the lane. She was walking to the water cooler.
QUOTE]

1. There's criticizing, and then there is constructive criticism. If your son is that new to the sport, then maybe this fencer was trying to help. Also, not enough information in your post, but if the fencer and/or coach happen to not be native English speakers, sometimes general comments can sound harsh...it's just a function of not knowing how to soften the language to make more palatable to American parents...As a coach, fencing parent and referee, I've heard more than my share of criticism...if you don't have skin thick enough for it at this level, forget competitive fencing.

2. If your wife was walking on or near the strip that he was just finishing up on, there is a huge safety issue of which she was probably blissfully unaware. I can't tell you how many new parents will attempt to walk in between fencers during a bout in progress. Usually, they are NOT wearing any sort of safety equipment, certainly not a mask, which puts them in serious jeopardy. Can you imagine how the fencer would have felt if your wife was hurt on his strip because she was unaware of her surroundings? I'm guessing I would have sworn, too.

Originally Posted by noodle

i suspect that the fencer in question isn't simply "a champion", but instead the reason he's tolerated is because he's "a large revenue stream".

QFT...or maybe he had good reason to be annoyed?

Fencing is a sport of passion. Especially as a parent, I have found that my child is far more prepared to handle just about any real life situation, based on both his positive and negative experiences with the sport. He has learned how to handle victory and defeat with equal grace. He's understands the differences between his ability to perform in fencing and his ability to function as a person, making him incredibly resilient. He has learned to stand up for himself and what he believes. He has developed a tremendous sense of confidence. Every once in a while, he can be an absolute jerk, too. But all of that comes together to make one heck of a fencer, and a very cool human being.

How is your child going to handle it when a college professor, or his supervisor is critical of his work? Will he walk away and never come back?

[DLEE]

[quote=SEM Fencer;745613]

Originally Posted by AngryFather

continually criticized my son and made rude comments to him.

Toward the end of the session the young man walked off the 'lane' swearing. My wife walked in front of him as he was coming off the lane. She was walking to the water cooler.
QUOTE]

1. There's criticizing, and then there is constructive criticism. If your son is that new to the sport, then maybe this fencer was trying to help. Also, not enough information in your post, but if the fencer and/or coach happen to not be native English speakers, sometimes general comments can sound harsh...it's just a function of not knowing how to soften the language to make more palatable to American parents...As a coach, fencing parent and referee, I've heard more than my share of criticism...if you don't have skin thick enough for it at this level, forget competitive fencing.

2. If your wife was walking on or near the strip that he was just finishing up on, there is a huge safety issue of which she was probably blissfully unaware. I can't tell you how many new parents will attempt to walk in between fencers during a bout in progress. Usually, they are NOT wearing any sort of safety equipment, certainly not a mask, which puts them in serious jeopardy. Can you imagine how the fencer would have felt if your wife was hurt on his strip because she was unaware of her surroundings? I'm guessing I would have sworn, too.



QFT...or maybe he had good reason to be annoyed?

Fencing is a sport of passion. Especially as a parent, I have found that my child is far more prepared to handle just about any real life situation, based on both his positive and negative experiences with the sport. He has learned how to handle victory and defeat with equal grace. He's understands the differences between his ability to perform in fencing and his ability to function as a person, making him incredibly resilient. He has learned to stand up for himself and what he believes. He has developed a tremendous sense of confidence. Every once in a while, he can be an absolute jerk, too. But all of that comes together to make one heck of a fencer, and a very cool human being.

How is your child going to handle it when a college professor, or his supervisor is critical of his work? Will he walk away and never come back?

Sorry, but rude is rude.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by DLEE

Sorry, but rude is rude.

Actually, the definition of rude seems to be rather subjective. It depends on the cultural context, the language, and the personal perceptions of the people involved...

For example, hand gestures that are considered rude in one culture may not have any meaning whatsoever in another...

I think the point that SEM was trying to make (please correct me if I'm wrong) was that we only have part of the story here. We are only given one point of view, which is not necessarily the whole truth.

[Sean Butler]

Originally Posted by AngryFather

During the course of the evening a young man (in his early 20s) continually criticized my son and made rude comments to him.

Originally Posted by AngryFather

Toward the end of the session the young man walked off the 'lane' swearing.

Originally Posted by AngryFather

My wife walked in front of him as he was coming off the lane. She was walking to the water cooler. Without provocation the young man swore at her.

Originally Posted by AngryFather

the coach told me "that they had no control over the adult members behavior and that if I had a conflict with the young man that I should leave and not comeback."

SEM Fencer,

While these are an expression of one point of view about the events, I think that it is uncharitable to take up a contrary point of view without proof of your own and claim that somehow the parents are not doing a good job of raising their son. You rewrite his story to potentially have his wife crossing a strip with active fencers when the original story said clearly that the fencer was leaving the strip, no longer fencing. To me it sounds like you are defending the idea that it is okay for fencers to swear, criticize, and demean other fencers. Why would you want to defend such a position?

Language barrier or not, champion or not, continual swearing in the salle should be dealt with. It will only detract from your program and limit the revenue you can get from children's parents.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

As has been suggested at some length, as we have only one side, we're forced to play devil's advocate.

Some clubs aren't focused on younger kids, or have certain days/times that are more kid friendly.

Many adults want a period of time where they get to be adults, with other adults. From working with kids, I usually automatically censor myself when anyone younger than 13 is around. But I want adult time-- time when a swear slipping loose isn't a problem, when I can make crude jokes with my friends, and all of those other things that aren't very appropriate around kids.

It's possible that this club has a larger percentage of assholes because it's one of the few places the behavior is tolerated. While I know any number of people who are rude and mean, it's not a higher percentage than I find in any other group.

It's also possible that you found a club not used to dealing with many younger kids, or don't have kids often when you were there. Many clubs have people showing up after dinner, and the youngest kids are all out by 8, anyone under 18 out by 9:30, and then the adults have adult time. That club might have a different idea of when adult time is....

But most importantly, assuming you weren't confrontational during your discussion with the coach, (and maybe even if you were), the coach should have been more customer friendly. It doesn't take much to say "I'll talk to the fencer about the behavior you mentioned" --- because even if the coach feels it's acceptable behavior in general, it's not in the coach's monetary interest to let the fencer do those thing in front of your son.

I doubt you would be here if this were the end of the story. If you knew in your heart of hearts that every fencer was rude and inappropriate, you wouldn't want to interact with any fencer ever again. So look around. Try to find another club. And before you give them money, before you put your child into the situation, ask. Find the head coach, and say "If I thought that an older fencer was rude and inappropriate around my child, and I brought this concern to you, what would you do?". There are some other questions you might want to ask, but after your experience, I'm sure this one should make the list. And if the coach cannot answer the question in a way you feel comfortable with, don't give that person the business. But I also think you should be asking the wrestling coach, the soccer coach, and the hockey coach the same question. Just because there hasn't yet been a problem doesn't mean there won't be, and you still want to be able to trust the other adults you allow to care for and be role models for your children.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

......Some clubs aren't focused on younger kids, or have certain days/times that are more kid friendly.

Many adults want a period of time where they get to be adults......

I suggest you find a club that is focused on youth fencing. Our club has a mixture of youth and adults. The kids start early after school...there is a period of time when the adults are showing up and the kids are finishing....
By 7:30 PM most of the kids have gone home...but the coaches still need to control the sportsmanlike behavior of both the kids and the adults...at all times....and it is good preparation for USFA events where the rules will be enforced.

...another reason to look for certified coaches and USFA member clubs...gives you some options when you need to report an incident like this

[TexasLady]

I am sorry your son is leaving fencing because of this incident. If, however, the people around him are not a source of inspiration then it is absolutely the right thing to do.

Just know that not all coaches tolerate such behavior from fencers. Mine would have given that fencer one warning and then he would have been out of the club for good. Because my coach emphasizes sportsmanship I have never felt so welcome on a team, and respected as well. The tournaments I've been to have been well run affairs where people conduct themselves with dignity. I guess I'm just lucky with my experience.

As with any sport, the athletes will get away with the worst behavior their coaches allow. It sounds like the clubs you have visited had coaches whose focus was not on conduct but perhaps on other aspect of the sport.

[AngryFather]

I would like to thank everyone for the prompt replies. I appreciate reading that not everyone in the sport of fencing seems to condone this attitude. However, I am afraid the damage is done.

I spoke with a second club today. I liked the head instructor from what I was able to garner from our phone conversation. I presented the idea of attending this club to my son. His response was prompt, and rather unfortunate. He said, "No thanks dad. I want to go back to wrestling. I just don't like what I've seen." (He was referring to the behaviors he had witnessed at the school as well as the actions of fencers on youtube.)

You know folks, this is really sad, my son was in love with the sport from the moment he picked up a foil. He came to the sport of his own volition. And despite having never participated in the sport ourselves, my wife and I were very supportive.

It's just sad. No hard feelings folks, but we are headed back to familiar territory. It was fun while it lasted.

[Dev]

Originally Posted by berghouse

As a parent of a competitive youth fencer, starting a 9, I have witnessed similar behavior from adult fencers. Adult fencers do not like fencing kids because they are hard to hit, have chest protectors and do not react to fencing actions in a predictable way.

To be fair, there are a lot of reasons why adult fencers may be uneasy about (or just don't like) fencing young children, that have little to do with the outcome of the bout:

1) They don't want to hurt them. What feels like a correctly executed touch, if it lands on the wrong spot or off-target, may actually be too hard, and that can be difficult to gauge. The last thing many adult fencers want to see are little eyes welling up with tears while the little one rubs his/her arm, with the parents about twelve feet away. This can be difficult to avoid if the young fencer wants to make up for the height/size discrepancy by moving very quickly or being very aggressive.

2) It's a lose-lose situation, psychologically. If the adult fencer wins, he/she may look or feel like a bully (even if they're gracious and gentle), who just beat up on a little kid. If the adult fencer loses, they just got beat by a little kid.

3) To phrase it as delicately as I can manage, not all little kids are particularly nice or gracious themselves. This mostly exacerbates the situation in (2).

I'm not saying it can't work--merely that there are obstacles involved, and they should be kept in mind.

Please note that the above statements are a response to Mr. Berghouse's contribution, and not meant to excuse the behavior of the fencer and coach cited in the original post. Just because there are issues with adults fencing children doesn't mean the adults should not comport themselves in a civil manner--which, according to the OP, doesn't seem to have happened.

[AngryFather]

Originally Posted by Fechter1

Actually, the definition of rude seems to be rather subjective. It depends on the cultural context, the language, and the personal perceptions of the people involved...

For example, hand gestures that are considered rude in one culture may not have any meaning whatsoever in another...

I think the point that SEM was trying to make (please correct me if I'm wrong) was that we only have part of the story here. We are only given one point of view, which is not necessarily the whole truth.

I agree, however, let me speak an expletive to your spouse and we can try to get the "whole" story. Oh and truth, like so many other things, is subjective.

The fact is, he called my wife a rude name that I will NOT repeat. He chastised my son for yawning and tapped him on the back of the head with an epee. Then sneered at me and walked off when I tried to engage the young man in dialogue.

And despite the polite responses here, even the folks that do not agree with me, I think actions speak louder than words. Moreover, after reviewing many of the actions of elite competitors on youtube, I feel my son is making a sound decision.

Thank you for you time. I will not respond to any other posts. Feel free to delete my account.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by AngryFather

Moreover, after reviewing many of the actions of elite competitors on youtube, I feel my son is making a sound decision.

i assume you're referring to the post-touch celebrations.

there are many topics on this (search the forum to find them), and suffice it to say, while its a little more exaggerated in fencing due to a cultural evolution, it exists in almost every one-on-one sport and for the most part, is not associated with poor sportsmanship. indeed, i would point out that we probably penalize poor sportsmanship on the strip and such more than some of the other sports i've participated in.

for more information, read this, the latest thread on the topic:
"Reactions" screaming, taunting, unsportsmanlike tantrums are beneath the sport.

and what i feel is the best, most concise opinion on the matter is this:
"Reactions" screaming, taunting, unsportsmanlike tantrums are beneath the sport.

[Blackbird]

A very nice guy I knew in high school wrestled. If I remember right, those sportsmanlike wrestlers fractured his hand while hazing him for his small build about three years ago.
the common pattern I see here is guys being out of control, aggressive jerks, not any behavior encouraged by any sport. Maybe we need to take a good look at ourselves culturally once in a while.

[mrbiggs]

I think it's odd to take the behavior of one person on one day as applicable to everyone who participates in a sport.

[Allen Evans]

Reread the OP posts. It's not a surprise.

AE

[Fencing Mom]

Angry Dad,

I hear you that fencing is no longer his choice, and I am sorry your family's experience has been so bad. I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

Was your 10-year-old son, on the second day that he was experiencing open fencing, competing against the rude 20-year-old? Or was he on a strip near the 20-year-old? Who was he fencing, or what was he doing? So much of this sounds wrong. If he is only a few lessons into fencing, I am surprised that he would be in an open bouting session. Many beginners aren't even handling weapons that soon after starting lessons. Were there any other 10-year-olds around? All of this sounds like a club that has no history with kids. There is no way to defend the behavior that your family experienced, but in my opinion, it can be put in context. What language and behavior might your family have seen and heard if your 10-year-old son were practicing basketball on the same court as some experienced 20-year-old basketball players - not playing against them, but on the same court?

Was he only watching elite fencers on YouTube, no youth fencers? I love the democracy of YouTube, but as far as posting fencing goes - the good, the bad, and the ugly are all equally represented with no way for beginners to differentiate. Olympic/high level fencing and what he would experience at the youth circuit level are completely different. Was it the celebrations at the Olympic level that turned him off to the sport? I take it that you and your son believe the celebrations are more evidence that people in fencing are rude. Again, let me not defend, but add context. Perhaps YouTube has some video of a 10-year-old Pop Warner football player making a touchdown and celebrating. Compare that celebration to one in the NFL. The Olympics are the superbowl of fencing - elite fencing is the regular season.

[lovesabre]

My high school's wrestling team was a bunch a rude fellas who always had to eat (or not eat) in a very unhealthy way to maintain thier perfect weight. It had to be an exact number for weigh ins. I always thought what an awful sport.

I never based my judgements about that particular sport on my high school or its wrestlers. I realized that not all wrestlers were like them. Please don't be so quick to judge a sport on a couple of experiences and YouTube (ha!) videos, which often seem to be put online for entertainment reasons.

Our 2008 Olympians are amazing people and continue to be. Look up the work of Tim Morehouse, the sabre fencer from New York, who is getting out there and making a wonderful impact on his community through his success as a fencer.

My two daughters loved fencing and made great friends all over the country through the sport. Yes, there were times when we had to deal with rude coaches, parents, and other athletes, however we had to do that in our son's 8 years in baseball as well.

Overall, our fencing experience was so great that I now take lessons myself. One of my daughters is having a great time teaching children the sport while in college.