Rude behavior.....

[Lady Quindecim]

Our coach suspended a kid for his language and overall temper
What is the deal with profanity anyway? I mean, why do people swear? Are they that inarticulate?
What is the facination with it?
I apologize, I just do not really understan.

[slow_learner]

Our coach suspended a kid for his language and overall temper

I saw a wonderful documentary on Borg's tennis career. The film started with a hook: Borg in close up, reminiscing quietly on how, when he as a mere stripling new to the game, his home club suspended him for throwing tantrums, tossing his racquet, swearing, etc. After a couple of months he begged to be re-admitted to the club. They held firm. A few more months of begging and pleading. When they finally let him back in he became and remained The Ice Man.

He said he was grateful for the lesson.

[telkanuru]

What is the deal with profanity anyway? I mean, why do people swear? Are they that inarticulate?

How does utilizing a subsection of your vocabulary make you inarticulate.

An excellent piece of dialog from Firefly

"I swear... when it's appropriate."
"... the point of swearing is that it ain't!"

[Zilverzmurfen]

I saw a wonderful documentary on Borg's tennis career. The film started with a hook: Borg in close up, reminiscing quietly on how, when he as a mere stripling new to the game, his home club suspended him for throwing tantrums, tossing his racquet, swearing, etc. After a couple of months he begged to be re-admitted to the club. They held firm. A few more months of begging and pleading. When they finally let him back in he became and remained The Ice Man.

He said he was grateful for the lesson.

Makes you wish John McEnroe would have gotten the same lesson...

[Purple Fencer]

Makes you wish John McEnroe would have gotten the same lesson...

Or Nastasi...

[dfranke]

I think this sort of conduct is one area where we should consider taking a cue from classical fencers. Evangelista's rants are 80% nonsense, but with respect to etiquette he has a legitimate gripe, and I think that alone is the reason that the classical fencing community manages to survive independent from the rest of the sport. If we merely adopted their expectation of always immediately acknowledging touches and of declining any point that you think is in question, then I think that would be sufficient to make a majority of the jerks lose interest.

[D'Art]

A lot of sport fencers already do that, even in high level competitions.

[Lady Quindecim]

OK, so, like, I was listenin' more closely to people at my, if I can call it that, shewl, if I can call it that, and yeah, so, maybe it is common...er than I thought.
Ever watched the player's bench at an NHL game. I can read lip... and the odd gesture or two.
I like hockey, but is that the image _we_ want for ourselves?
:hmm:

[telkanuru]

I think this sort of conduct is one area where we should consider taking a cue from classical fencers. Evangelista's rants are 80% nonsense, but with respect to etiquette he has a legitimate gripe, and I think that alone is the reason that the classical fencing community manages to survive independent from the rest of the sport. If we merely adopted their expectation of always immediately acknowledging touches and of declining any point that you think is in question, then I think that would be sufficient to make a majority of the jerks lose interest.

I don't think we suffer from cheating in this regard more than any other sport would, and less than most.

However, if, in a tournament, the way I behave on strip has any sort of impact at all on the way you behave, you'd damn well better believe I'm going to use that in any way I can.

[ApAperture]

[QUOTE=SEM Fencer;745613]

How is your child going to handle it when a college professor, or his supervisor is critical of his work? Will he walk away and never come back?

I don't see the connection with this and angryfather's complaint. Wait.. Most tenured professors are real jerks; so now, I see your point.

-----

and say, if someone was impeding on the end/side/whereever of the lane; you could at least say "watch out," or at least not cuss at the person. There are other words that you could say than "**ck, ****ole, ***ch, etc"

[dfranke]

A lot of sport fencers already do that, even in high level competitions.

Yes, myself included (though I am not high-level). But this conduct is currently considered above-and-beyond the expected standard of sportsmanship, whereas I think it ought to be demanded.

[Old Fencer]

As a national and local referee for more than 15 years I had issued more black cards than any other referee in the history of the sport. Once I even issued two (2) black cards to a fencer within a single encounter. As a parent of a football, baseball and track athlete I have witnessed poor sportsmanship in other sports as well. This problem is not solely visited upon the more mature athlete. It exists in every age category and must be addressed in an appropriate manner. Not having personally witnessed to incident I feel less than qualified to judge the parties involved without hearing from others. Through the course of my life experience I have discovered there are three (3) sides to every story; yours, mine and the truth. I believe that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree and in this case it would seem that the adult influences involved (parents, coach, club owner, etc…) need to visit the nearest mirror for some sorely needed reflection.

[fencerwallet]

Toward the end of the session the young man walked off the 'lane' swearing. My wife walked in front of him as he was coming off the lane. She was walking to the water cooler. Without provocation the young man swore at her.


In addition to the comments from the coach, another member told me that the young man was a champion and his behavior was tolerated.

"Champion" of what? A fencer in his early 20s, if he is a "Champion" is one of only a few individuals, regardless of weapon. I would guess this is quite the exaggeration.

Here is a story:
Anecdotally, last year, I think if I recall correctly it was at JOs, there was an eventual Cadet World Team fencer in my son's pool (hence the importance of his JOs result). He was losing a pool bout to a below average fencer 4-0 (who was basically just sticking out his blade) because the referee was not seeing his parry. After the 4th touch, the kid for the first time politely argued his point, to no avail. The next touch, down 4-0, he parried so forcefully he sheared the other kid's blade in half. I was sitting behind the referee and said, "that was a clear parry". The referee glanced back and gave a small smile. The fencer just looked at the referee and went back to the line, eventually winning 5-4, making sure each time thereafter that the referee saw the action.

Aside from the fact this is a fun story, my point is that this kid, as a true elite fencer, displayed enough maturity and understanding to handle himself appropriately under the circumstances. If he would have lost, I would bet he would have blamed himself for not adapting sooner. Those who exhibit bad behavioral displays for others to see, whether in the heat of battle or in the relaxed atmosphere of a club, lack the discipline and focus to truly accomplish anything, in sport or in life. Outbursts do not accomplish anything other than tag you with a bad rep. The "champion" who is mentioned in the intial post is clearly nothing of the sort.

[Dev]

As a national and local referee for more than 15 years I had issued more black cards than any other referee in the history of the sport.

This doesn't sound like something of which to be proud.

Once I even issued two (2) black cards to a fencer within a single encounter.

Neither does this.

[epeelion]

Once I even issued two (2) black cards to a fencer within a single encounter.

I agree with Dev, I'm not sure as to how this would even happen. Regardless, giving out black cards is not a badge of honor. I hate referees who think giving out cards makes them badass.

[telkanuru]

Agreed. If you've had to throw a black card, you've lost control of your strip, which means you've failed to do your job. Most BCs are along this line, IMO.

[Purple Fencer]

Agreed. If you've had to throw a black card, you've lost control of your strip, which means you've failed to do your job. Most BCs are along this line, IMO.

Not entirely....I remember one time when a fencer was getting his epee tested prior to a bout...it failed....so did his backup,so he ended up with a red card.

The Director mildly mentioned that the fencer should probably learn to check his gear before going to a tournament....to which the fencer immediately responded "You know what? F### YOU!"

The director immediately the black card....I wouldn't say that Ed Richards has lost control of his strip...it was one fencer who could not control his temper.

Another time this SAME fencer earned a black card for heaving his mask across the venue....had I started walking behind the end of the strip a couple of seconds earlier, it would've hit me....on the fly...Mike D'Asaro Jr. had no choice but to throw the card....and again, Junior didn't lose control....he can't control if someone snaps.

This fencer was, in fact, the reason SoCal created a rule the next season that after a certain number of black cards, a fencer was banned from competing in the division except for qualifiers...Notalent should remember who that fencer was....we named the rule AFTER him.

As for 2 blacks in the same encounter...I could see it by a combo of manifest cheating followed by a mask throw...

[epeelion]

Once you've given one black, I really feel like you should just let it take effect and move on. Really no need to give a second. If they get physical, call security. Giving them another card certainly isn't going to make them any more reasonable, hehe.

[Old Fencer]

You missed the point all together………..So I’ll give some more examples. I
once observed a fencer walk up behind his referee’s back after losing his bout
giving her dual middle fingers. I issued the black card having witnessed the
act. The fencer was subsequently suspended from the USFA for a year. That same fencer asked me to step outside at National Collegiate Championships. Obviously he had issues with authority figures…. No control issue on my part.

The double black card went to a fencer who at the conclusion of his bout began screaming obscenities, first Black Card issued. Upon seeing the black card he threw (not tossed) his mask across the room narrowly missing another fencer, second black card issue. I am open to suggestions as to how I could have maintained better control. Underlying issue: the fencer thought he was better than his opponent and felt slighted by the referee. His opponent went on to win an additional two (2) bouts that day to become a national champion. The black carded fencer reportedly went to the convention center bathroom and caused damage to the interior structures. That is when security was called.

Yet another example… During a team competition and unregistered fencer wears the jacket of a registered team member and fences the registered fencer’s bout.

How about the fencer who punched his opponent at the conclusion of the bout, any suggestions?

The USFA takes into consideration the number of black cards issued in determining what, if any action who be best. When I hear someone say the referee is to blame for the athlete’s unsportsmanlike behavior I have to take a step back. That is the equivalent of saying that the police are responsible for a criminal’s behavior. My point was simply that I did not tolerate unsportsmanlike behavior and if this was the rule rather than the exception I think things would be a bit more civil.

[epeelion]

Ok. It sounded more like you were proud of issuing black cards, and that sort of "the more cards I give, the tougher and more badass I look" is a scary attitude, and one that unfortunately I have seen before. If that's not you, then good. Although I still don't really see why you would give a second black card. But I suppose it doesn't really make a difference.