help with short attention spans

[emagdnim]

I'm the Captain and President of a rather large club/team at Old Dominion University and it has fallen to me to coach.

I did a good bit of this last year but I (for the most part) only taught sabre (my weapon) and intro foil and the president that year taught foil and epee. Now that last years president is rarely seen I have the challenge of coaching the entire club by myself. I know what they need as far as drills, I can help them develop as fencers on a personal level but I am overwhelmed. I'll give the foilist drills, critique, move on to epee and do the same....then to sabre.... but by the time I get back to the foilists their form has gone to crap, its almost broken down to free bouting or just sitting around and chattering. This isn't really an issue in epee or sabre but my foilist are out of control. There are a few good students (and good foilists) in the group but all attempts to get hem to act as leaders for their fellow foilists has fallen short. I'm at my wits end with them, if this continues I think I might just give up on them and not waste my time so I can focus on the epees and sabres that actually have some desire to get better.

So wise fencing forum, please impart thy knowledge and wisdom unto me.

[RITFencing]

It's kind of odd that university students are that uncontrollable... usually, if they don't want to be there, they just leave.

That being said, whenever I have students with short attention spans, which is 90% of the time, I try to keep changing things up every 10 or 20 minutes; really tending towards 10. Or even 5 in extreme cases. That way, they don't have time to get bored with whatever they're doing.

Honestly, even when a group has really good discipline, I find that it's good to keep changing the activity. Retention rate drops as time spent on something goes on, so making things different and new always helps keep them sharp and focused.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Hm, sounds bad. Perhaps you could tell the "good" foilists how much you actually need them to lead. Coming from the Coach, that should mean a lot.

Is there any foilist there that has significantly better form or technique than the others? Maybe they need to do the group drills, and then have that one foilist run some more foil-specific drills, or watch them bout, correct what's wrong, etc. Makes it hard on the "good" foilist, but I don't know what else I would do.

Our club used to do a lot of standing around chatting, and we were a one-weapon club! So I know the frustration that comes with that. Most, if not all, of the time was spent free bouting. Fun, but not particularly instructive. I think we could have used a more structured setting.

As far as short attention spans, switch activities often? That's what they say for little kids, anyway.
Hope you figure it out.
AF

[Applesauce and Foils]

LOL! You posted while I typed! That's 2 votes for "Change activities often!"
AF

[noodle]

this is especially true in the college setting --

there will always be a significant number of people who don't *want* to get better. they're there to goof around and socialize more than anything else, or play with swords.

make sure to talk to everyone, but focus your attention on the people who want it. who cares if the other foilists goof off? if they listen to you and do what you say, good for them. if not, at least you're instructing the foilists who want instruction. if none of the foilists want it, then leave them alone. but make sure to tell everyone whats going on. i'd use terms similar to what i said earlier.

[MdA]

You really need to get another coach or coaches. Do you have funds to pay another coach? If you don't, you will be spinning your wheels for the rest of the year.

Are there other experienced fencers/coaches in your area who are looking for a home?

[RITFencing]

You really need to get another coach or coaches. Do you have funds to pay another coach? If you don't, you will be spinning your wheels for the rest of the year.

Are there other experienced fencers/coaches in your area who are looking for a home?

I doubt he's getting paid for this.

[catwood1]

I have had a similar problem at times at my club. I'm only one person, and with 3 weapon squads, it gets kinda daunting. If you don't already have them, have each squad elect a "captain." This makes it very clear who is in charge, and who needs to keep everyone else in line. It also gives the captain a sense of power, so they will likely be more ok with taking a leadership position if they have some actual authority.

However, make it clear that you're still above the squad captains in the pecking order.

[MdA]

My point is …this coach is gonna need some help. Even if you elect captains like catwood1 suggests.

I am probably overstating the obvious…but this is the type of situation that ruins the fencing experience for volunteer coaches or club presidents. They are forced into a situation where they must coach a weapon they don’t want to coach. They get over-extended to the point where nothing constructive occurs.

Here are a few options…

Do as many combined drills and exercises as possible…with all three weapons together. Warm-up together…stretching…you can do a lot of footwork drills with all three weapons together. Epee and foil can do some of the same simple attacks with partners or targets. Lunging for an hour is good for all of them. When you split up the weapons…give the foil fencers some assigned drills or tasks….this is probably the best you can do…as coach you will need to concentrate on overall safety. You need to supervise the activities of all three weapons…not off in the corner with only the saber folks. This will take a lot from the detail you can offer the other two weapons.

In the meantime, you should focus you efforts on recruiting another volunteer coach. Perhaps offer free membership to an experienced fencer in the area that will come in and help for a once or twice a week.

Back to the idea of a paid coach….you might want to ask the foil fencers if they want to take up a collection and hire an experienced foil coach to come in and give a group lesson…once a week….even for 1-2 hours….or a clinic on the weekend. This coach may be able to give them things they can work on the rest of the time.

[darius]

I'll give the foilist drills, critique, move on to epee and do the same....then to sabre.... but by the time I get back to the foilists their form has gone to crap, its almost broken down to free bouting or just sitting around and chattering.

As you've noted, good fencers aren't always good leaders. Find the leaders in the group to help keep them on task.

I've found that targeted bouting (instead of actual "drills") works really well in large group environments. Give them limitations or restrictions. If you're working on developing a certain skill, create a situation where one person can use that skill and one person tries to beat it.

Some ideas:
- Attack v. Defense: One person is attacking. The other is defending. The defender uses a known parry; the attacker can either beat them straight, go around the parry, or set up a counter-riposte action.
- No blade contact: if you touch the blade you recieve a touch against. Gotta use your feet.
- All right-of-way: if you counterattack, penalty touch against. If your opponent hits you too, they get the point in addition to your penalty point.
- Michael Marx rules: you cannot make blade contact coming forward, and if you parry, you must immediately riposte. Touch against if you mess up either of these.
- 3,6,9 Takeaway: Bout to 10. When a fencer scores 3,6, or 9, their opponent can take away a target or action. (ie. "You can't hit me on parry-4 riposte." or "You cannot score on a counterattack.") You can adjust the broadness based on the strength level.
- Known Parry: You can only use a single parry (known to opponent). Use your feet all you want, counterattack all you want, but if you can get your opponent to parry, you know which one it will be. Touch against for using a different parry.

These aren't necessarily the best for technical development; lessons or more formal drills work best for that. But they keep such a group interested, and make them think about what they're doing.

darius

[MdA]

For open bouting. Make up pool sheets or post a large scoresheet on the wall. Make sure they work their way thru the scoresheet and they all fence their bouts instead of standing around.

[emagdnim]

my attempts at making captains has been less then fruitful, mostly because they don't really listen to them and whenever i get a strong leader in the foil group they switch to epee or sabre. whether this is because they actually like the weapon or that they realize they'll learn more with the two other groups in my club I cannot tell.


I forgot to mention what I now realize might be an attributing factor. We have a foilist that is new to the club but has fenced on and off for several years. Its obvious to me that his training was lacking, he never paid attention to his former coach, or that he went to a club that was purely free bouting. His form is pretty bad and he can't complete simple parry repost drills with the amount of ease his experience should allow him and thus doesn't want to do them. I can mop the floor with him but his natural agility and bouting experience makes him a bit better than the majority of the club. I know he can't move on from where he is without going back and learning how to actually fence but the club may see that he can beat them without much use for drills and may think they don't need to drill as much.

So how can I debunk this "weapon leader" to replace him with my own. Besides from the obvious more sinister methods


P.S. Sadly hiring another coach is not an option. Due to bureaucratic issues I don't need to go into our dues are unreasonably low and we're barely able to keep the club running financially. Not to mention my University is insane about coaches and I don't think many will want to put up with the drug tests and back ground checks my school deems mandatory to bring in outside coaches

[MdA]

....P.S. Sadly hiring another coach is not an option. Due to bureaucratic issues I don't need to go into our dues are unreasonably low and we're barely able to keep the club running financially. Not to mention my University is insane about coaches and I don't think many will want to put up with the drug tests and back ground checks my school deems mandatory to bring in outside coaches

Do you need a foil team? Do you compete against other college clubs in a team format that requires foil? If not, you might want to consider dropping the foil program...to conserve resources.

[keith]

Do you need a foil team? Do you compete against other college clubs in a team format that requires foil? If not, you might want to consider dropping the foil program...to conserve resources.

... or simply design a training routine that gets you down to the required minimum. Lots of footwork and technical drills for a month or so?

[MdA]

... or simply design a training routine that gets you down to the required minimum. Lots of footwork and technical drills for a month or so?

You could tell the foil squad that the University has decided to suspend the foil program after this season because of decreased budget. They have the rest of the year to transition into the other two weapons....the University might reconsider if they showed significant improvement or competitive results.

This might get them going....they might even come up with their own volunteer coach.

There should be no harm done. If they are as bad as you say...even if you need to have foil for team meets...you could cover those bouts with your sabre and epee backups. I have been in this situation before...

[emagdnim]

You could tell the foil squad that the University has decided to suspend the foil program after this season because of decreased budget.

I can't believe the words are coming out of my mouth....or from my fingertips... but either way our poor budget is not the Universities fault. I'm the only one on the executive board for the club that actually fences extensively outside of the club, most of them have no experience outside of college. So they don't truly know how expensive running a fencing club really is or what other clubs charge, especially when trying to get to meets. We have almost 30 fencers that use loaner gear but the club refuses to charge more than 40 dollars a semester and three practices a week. I have a feeling they won't appreciate me shoving their decisions back in there face with this. I have gotten our team a sponsor or two to keep our body cords mended and the van full of gas but thats about it.

If I had it my way from the beginning we might have the capital for a foil coach but I have the other execs to work through and they would never approve of spending more money or the disbanding of the foil team.

[MdA]

.... I'm the only one on the executive board for the club that actually fences extensively outside of the club, most of them have no experience outside of college. So they don't truly know how expensive running a fencing club really is or what other clubs charge, especially when trying to get to meets. ....

If you are going to teach them about fencing...you need to teach them about the real cost of fencing.

[Fencergrl]

If you decide to do as Mda suggests, there are some threads on this forum that discuss what people pay for club fees. You might want to consider doing a chart. You could also include replacement cost for equipment (that you will need etc...) as an indicator of the cost of running a club. Perhaps this might convince them to either charge more or do some fund raising.

[Drew]

Echoing earlier thoughts, perhaps the best way to convince the other execs that money is an issue/dues aren't enough is to create a budget sheet. Its a lot harder to argue with something when you have concrete numbers for equipment, etc. Make it a point to discuss at your next meeting. Make sure you don't drive your opinion down their throat either.

Additionally, possibly get a committee together to discuss fund-raising options. Make it open to the club at large, (limit the numbers, certainly) explaining that the only way that fees can be maintained at their current levels is through finding other sources of funding. If people can be shown that they directly benefit from doing an action, they're more likely to buy into it.

[Allen Evans]

There is information missing here. Is this a club team? Why are the foilists (who don't seem to want to get wit hthe program) there in the first place? How much control do you have over who comes and goes at club? Is there an opportunity to reward/punish fencers for working or not working? Why are the other two weapons working and the foil squad slacking?

Some college clubs are about fencing. Some college clubs are about dating, or drinking beer after practice. If you've decided that the club is about fencing, and you're in charge, you need to ask the fencers who are there to date/socialize to find some other place to do it. You've got work to do, and they're expected to do the same work as other squads. Don't want to cooperate? There's the door. I'd rather work with a motivated team with poor skills than an unmotivated team with mad skills.

Chances are there are only a few foilists who are slacking. There are probably a lot more that want to work, but can't get past the "leaders" lack of momentum.

It's very difficult to argue with a 18-20 year old who can score against everyone at club, even if they do it badly. But fencing isnt' different than any other sport. If you have someone holding back the team, despite being a good player, then they have to go.

Perhaps you don't have this control over your team, at least right now. You may have to take a long term approach and write this year off to a transition from multiple coaches to one coach while you slowly weed out/encourage/discourage the foil fencers. My own experiance with college clubs is that they tend to have a few magical years with a lot of average/disorganized years in between (this is not the rule, but it happens more often than not). If you don't have the ability to forceably change the people dynamic at club, you may just be stuck with some chaos this year and wait and see how the membership evolves.

AE