Problems with Prime against fleche in epee

[catwood1]

I was giving an epee lesson where a fencer uses prime as a defense against a fleche attack in epee if the distance is to small to use a 6. It was a righty vs. a lefty.

The problem was that often, the fencer would take the parry, but in my remise, my bell would hit his right before I passed, and essentially clear the blade out of the way because of the jarring bell to bell contact. There were no huge techincal mistakes going on that I could think of. Maybe I'm missing something.

It worked fine when done slowly, but when the speed of the fleche was increased, this kept on happening. Is it just a matter of the riposte not being quick enough? This doens't seem like the case. Thinking about a well made fleche, and a prime parry, the bell of the attacker is so far out in front, that it wouldn't be that hard to clear the defenders blade out before and prime riposte could hit the torso or leg.

Please let me know if there is some big glaring "thing" I'm overlooking.

Thanks in advance.

[telkanuru]

Please let me know if there is some big glaring "thing" I'm overlooking.

Yeah, prime doesn't work very well against opposite-handed fencers.

Suggestions-

The prime is not really a parry which should have first reflex priority. What I mean by this is, as a general rule, a fencer should not see a fleche coming and go 'O **** prime!'. Prime should mainly be a reaction to encountering too much resistance on a parry-6 (usually circle-6). This resistance generally occurs because the distance is too close, which results in the blade being too close to the guard for an effective take.

If you're intent on doing the action, the fencer may need to throw/flick his point in a bit (not winding up to do so). Also, a small step or half-lunge into the fleche might give the timing advantage needed.

[catwood1]

I feel like I see it used a decent amount. Maybe its only in an infighting situation, but I thought I'd seen it used against fleches in opposit handed fencers. I could be wrong though.

[jBirch]

I was giving an epee lesson where a fencer uses prime as a defense against a fleche attack in epee if the distance is to small to use a 6. It was a righty vs. a lefty.

The problem was that often, the fencer would take the parry, but in my remise, my bell would hit his right before I passed, and essentially clear the blade out of the way because of the jarring bell to bell contact. There were no huge techincal mistakes going on that I could think of. Maybe I'm missing something.

It worked fine when done slowly, but when the speed of the fleche was increased, this kept on happening. Is it just a matter of the riposte not being quick enough? This doens't seem like the case. Thinking about a well made fleche, and a prime parry, the bell of the attacker is so far out in front, that it wouldn't be that hard to clear the defenders blade out before and prime riposte could hit the torso or leg.

Please let me know if there is some big glaring "thing" I'm overlooking.

Thanks in advance.

To hit the riposte, you need to angulate the prime a lot more then you think. That extra angulation takes time, which disappears against a good fleche. Too, in a fleche, the opponent tends to have a lot more resistant blade then normal so your prime parry must be a lot stronger.

You have to teach the student to "roll" on top of the attack and "dig" under the bell if you want the action to work. The "parry riposte" in this case is more of a "stop hit with opposition".

Tough action to get right though. Why are you drilling this?

James.

[catwood1]

We had been talking about defense against a fleche. I had tought that a 6 was probably the best option, but what happens when the distance is to close, and if you try to do a full c6 you'll get hit on the remise? Maybe a prime isn't the right answer. In that case, other than prime, what would you recomend against a strait fleche from opponsit handed fencers.

Its amazing how much I learn I don't know everyday, and I enjoy every minute of it.

[telkanuru]

Edited my post to be more informative.

[Jason]

In that case, other than prime, what would you recomend against a strait fleche from opponsit handed fencers.

When dealing with opposite handed fencers, 4 is a money parry.

[telkanuru]

When dealing with opposite handed fencers, 4 is a money parry.

4 just means you want me to hit you on the leg

[Jason]

4 just means you want me to hit you on the leg

Well, every parry just means I want you to hit somewhere else.

[telkanuru]

Well, every parry just means I want you to hit somewhere else.

Mmm, but 4 is a particularly nice invitation, especially since the leg is such a juicy target on an opposite-handed fencer.

[Jason]

Mmm, but 4 is a particularly nice invitation, especially since the leg is such a juicy target on an opposite-handed fencer.

Anything can be a "juicy invitation". It all depends on timing and distance.

[RITFencing]

Yeah, prime doesn't work very well against opposite-handed fencers.

That's just patently untrue.

Prime can work against opposite handed fencers, just not as a yielding parry from 6.

Think about the mechanics of the situation. RH vs RH, when one fencer takes a 6 opposition, there is a pressure applied to the outside of the other fencer's blade. RH vs LH, when one fencer takes a 6 opposition, there is a pressure applied to the inside of the other fencer's blade. To make a yielding parry, a fencer has to give in to that pressure, but a yielding prime does not work moving the blade in this direction.

However, if the fencer can let go of the opponent's blade to create their own 6 opposition, they can rather easily transfer to prime. This is not a yielding prime, but it is close enough to a yielding parry 6 and can certainly be done.

If you want to do a yielding prime against an opposite handed fencer, you want them to take a 4 parry. this applies a similar pressure to your blade as a same handed fencer taking 6 and will therefore facilitate the parry quite nicely. It might give some trouble at first, but learning it is not very difficult.

[RITFencing]

When dealing with opposite handed fencers, 4 is a money parry.

Sure can be, especially when working to the body, but I find that circle 6 to the arm works quite well in epee against either hand.

Come to think of it, I do 4 against either hand as well, but not as often. 4 opposition is much safer and easier to pull off against an opposite handed fencer, though.

[telkanuru]

If you want to do a yielding prime against an opposite handed fencer, you want them to take a 4 parry. this applies a similar pressure to your blade as a same handed fencer taking 6 and will therefore facilitate the parry quite nicely. It might give some trouble at first, but learning it is not very difficult.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to get from 6 to prime, you simply have to drop your point and raise your hand, but to get from 4 to prime, you have to basically go around their blade by a disengage (an envelopment leads to 8/2). I just don't see how you can take a yielding parry from 4 to prime, regardless of the fencer's handedness, because the blade starts above rather than below. 7 to prime would work fine.

Edit- ARGH. I can't read for ****. "Have them take" not "you should take". You're right, sorry. I'd say that from there a simple remise is a better solution, however.

[jBirch]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to get from 6 to prime, you simply have to drop your point and raise your hand, but to get from 4 to prime, you have to basically go around their blade by a disengage (an envelopment leads to 8/2). I just don't see how you can take a yielding parry from 4 to prime, regardless of the fencer's handedness, because the blade starts above rather than below. 7 to prime would work fine.

You have to roll your wrist from supination in 6 to pronation in 1. Simply dropping your point gives you 7.

You "turn the key" then "check your watch".

4 to prime is a crazy transition, you're right. You have to drop your point while maintaining contact and then either do a semi-circular transition by "stirring the pot" or roll against the opponent's blade in place.

Not easy and certainly not effective. Lots of better options from there.

The low line ceding parry transition from 4 goes to 8 by "cutting over" their pressing blade as you've indicated. If you prefer to pronate, you can also easily take 2 from 4.

James.

[telkanuru]

You have to roll your wrist from supination in 6 to pronation in 1. Simply dropping your point gives you 7.

Sorry, this is what I meant by 'raise your hand'.

[RITFencing]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to get from 6 to prime, you simply have to drop your point and raise your hand, but to get from 4 to prime, you have to basically go around their blade by a disengage (an envelopment leads to 8/2). I just don't see how you can take a yielding parry from 4 to prime, regardless of the fencer's handedness, because the blade starts above rather than below. 7 to prime would work fine.

Edit- ARGH. I can't read for ****. "Have them take" not "you should take". You're right, sorry. I'd say that from there a simple remise is a better solution, however.

I think we've got some terminology issues here... An envelopment is a circular transfer that ends in the same line. A diagonal transfer from 4 to either 8 or 2 would be a croise. However, these are all the lines that I have engaged my opponent in.

There are 2 ways I can think of to change an engagement in my 6 line to my prime. One is by dropping the tip and raising my hand, bringing it up and across my body, changing directions with the forte and bell guard from the motion I used to take a circle 6. The other way is to move in the same direction, pushing their tip down and to the outside first, then bringing it to prime by rolling down first and then up. This would be a lot easier to just show you.

Going from an engagement in my 4 line to my prime would be unwieldy and probably bad. Going from an engagement in an opposite handed opponent's 4 line is another story.

Again, if I could have us both pick up a weapon, I'd have this demonstrated in about 2 minutes. It's difficult to communicate via typing, though.

EDIT: I didn't read your before posting. D'oh.

[Allen Evans]

There isn't anything inherently incorrect about using prime against an opposite handed fencer at close distance. It's a little more awkward than a strong beat in 4, perhaps, but I've seen it used by a number of fencers.

Why are your bells contacting each other?

* The defender could be over-exaggerating the lift of the prime parry.

* The attacker could be locking his/her arm on the fleche, or trying to "help" the parry by pulling the blade away from the defenders (forcing the defender to reach further to make the parry) as the fleche progresses.

* You don't explain where the attacker's remise is going to.

* The defender could be trying to hit a target above the waist after taking the parry.

* I have no idea what you mean by the statement: "that it wouldn't be that hard to clear the defenders blade out before and prime riposte could hit the torso or leg".

AE

[epeelion]

If the defender exaggerates the lift, wouldn't his bell avoid the remise? He'd get hit, but it seems like he wouldn't run into the bell.

Anyhoo, as Allen said, make sure he's not trying to "help" the prime parry. The prime is usually a yielding parry, meaning it needs very little force behind it (I say usually because in epee, as Telk said, it's done as a reaction to someone's six. Almost never as a standalone parry.). If he's pushing the bell forwards, you might have the problem you're describing. The prime generally should bring the hand to right in front of the head, with the point almost directly pointed at the target before the riposte even starts. Too far back, and there's too much room to remise. Too far forwards, and a clash occurs.

As for prime against opposite handed opponents, anyone who thinks this isn't effective needs only to fence Alex Tsinis. He'll be only too happy to show you how devastating it can be.

[noodle]

sounds like a hand position and timing issue to me. it is not difficult at all to prime against an opposite-handed fencer. it is also not terribly difficult, when you do a prime or are getting primed against, to mess it up with hand position. if you don't have some release, or if your opponent forces their blade into yours, there's no room to hit, often causing bell collisions.