Problems with Prime against fleche in epee

[epeelion]

This is simple geometry.

If you assume that the arm can only move in one direction, then you are somewhat correct. However, When I take a parry four my point can easily stay at the same distance from my body, because I make adjustments in all three dimensions. Your arm moving medially or laterally (when you take a six, your arm normally moves at least a little bit laterally, and sometimes up) will have the same effect if you consider the arm as moving only in one dimension. I don't think of this consideration as particularly reasonable, but it's quite possible we just take parries very differently (you're also a pure french-gripper, I use both french and pistol. Parries often differ between users of the two grips, though they shouldn't necessarily).

My point is mainly that, just as people got on my case when I made sweeping statements about the usefulness of the backwards lunge and about tip angulation in parries, I feel that saying six is always better than four is inaccurate. I often find four better than six, and it's been that way against everyone I've fenced (it confused the hell out of the Italian fencers) for long time.

[Jason]

There have been several studies about parry proclivity and, in all weapons, it has been repeatedly found that parry 4 is the most oft used parry.

[epeelion]

Part of me think that was sarcastic and is quite amused, and part of me is curious as to whether it might actually be true. Sarcasm tends to be the safest assumption though.

[Jason]

Part of me think that was sarcastic and is quite amused, and part of me is curious as to whether it might actually be true. Sarcasm tends to be the safest assumption though.

I also sometimes have trouble telling the difference between whether I'm sarcastic or not.

But it's actually true: I've seen a couple of studies about parry use and they find that parry 4 is the most widely used parry in all three weapons.

I'll add that these studies were based on what top-level fencers used in competition (Olympics, Worlds, etc.)

[epeelion]

Anecdotally somewhat true as well. Aladar (we haven't planned the wedding yet, sorry Jason) says there were a lot of Hungarian fencers that had phenomenal four-counter-fours, My four is very effective at the club, and a lot of the other top fencers use it as well. It tends to be a quicker reaction, since a six is usually a counter-six, and that takes longer. Depends on the fencer, of course.

[catwood1]

As for teaching a defense against the fleche, ... Moreover, if you are hit with a properly timed fleche (as noted above) you can't do anything about it. That's the point of the action. If the fleche is improperly timed, it's the same as defending against any other attack. Why teach it specifically?

Well, same thing for a simple advance lunge attack. If someone times it properly, and executes it correctly, they will hit, and theres nothing you can do about it. So why bother teaching how to deal with it?

:-P

[Allen Evans]

There have been several studies about parry proclivity and, in all weapons, it has been repeatedly found that parry 4 is the most oft used parry.

Hardly a surprise, since it's the only parry "hard wired" into us.

AE

[telkanuru]

Well, same thing for a simple advance lunge attack. If someone times it properly, and executes it correctly, they will hit, and theres nothing you can do about it. So why bother teaching how to deal with it?

:-P

Pretty much. Why teach it as a parry if you can teach it as a take?

[epeelion]

Why teach it as a parry if you can teach it as a take?

??

Because the two are fundamentally different things, done in different situations with different technique? A parry is not the same thing as a filo' (opposition) or closeout.

[telkanuru]

??

Because the two are fundamentally different things, done in different situations with different technique? A parry is not the same thing as a filo' (opposition) or closeout.

Perhaps I'm not saying this correctly.

How you respond to an attack is not as important as recognizing and utilizing the distance and body actions that dictate that an attack is going to occur, which overlaps significantly with the distance and body actions that determine that you should attack. The only difference is what your feet are doing.

Then again, I have a coach who can be summarized by "what is a retreat?"

[epeelion]

Ah, I see what you mean. My coach defines three times that are good for attacking. Accelerated attack to the slow retreat (basically, you accelerate into an opponent's slow movement backwards, often this is a remise), attack in foot tempo (more like what you are describing, attacking into their front foot movement, in preparation), and overtaking the attack. In this last case, the time that you attack by definition does not really overlap per se with the time in which your opponent does. But I understand what you mean. I utilize a very "passive aggressive" style, too, so I tend to do a lot of second intention ripostes and similar actions. Particularly with the pistol grip.

My coach also isn't too fond of retreats, but one or two are sometimes necessary.

[piste off]

As for prime against opposite handed opponents, anyone who thinks this isn't effective needs only to fence Alex Tsinis. He'll be only too happy to show you how devastating it can be.

Agreed. He also, like a lot of good lefties, has an excellent four.

It used to be that the book on lefties was to watch the four. They seem to always hug the outside edge of the strip and force you into it. I have not noticed it as much with the younger good fencers, but that used to be an expected standard playbook.

Four is an underutilized parry in epee. In fact there are only two or three people out there that I get concerned about and can really execute it (that are not lefties or french-grip users - which I'll get into later). Ironically, epeelion is one of them and Walt D. is the other (both Hungarian trained which explains a lot of it).

The six parry is the epee parry of choice since you can execute it and hit "along the line" (e.g. wrist, arm, deep) to a much greater degree. The better "four" fencers can execute it in a similar continuous fashion, but more often than not it is with a distinct tempo change.

Some french grip fencers have excellent fours because mechanically it is so superior to six (think of the leverage factor). Jon Normile is a great example (hmm, another Hungarian trained guy).

R-

[piste off]

Sigh. I still remember my coach's very first lesson.

If the attack is at your 6, take the blade and hit me.
If the attack is anywhere else, hit me.

telk,

This is the basis of what I would call modern epee thinking, which is not really a bad overall recipe for very valid reasons such as natural mechanics.

At a junior epee camp last year (invite only, and most of the major junior/cadet epeeists were there), I was watching the fencers along with our resident expert strategist (A.T. mentioned above). We had both just finished reading epee 2.0 and were discussing it in the context of what we were observing.

It was staggering how similar the styles were, with the above recipe being the norm (Gurnowski was the lone exception). "Look, they are all doing the same thing" was his comment. Part of it is the rationale that what you wrote makes sense, but there is a lot of other tools that can be used as nothing in fencing is a certainty - and variety does work. Four is an example of that.

True, it has its flaws (epeelion has pointed them out to me on several occasions in our discussions, he really knows his stuff). But under the right circumstances it can be incredibly effective, and as a french gripper you may find it a powerful option.

R-

[piste off]

This is simple geometry. From en guard to any parry 4, your point moves backwards (not necessarily a lot) because your arm comes across your body.

I would agree in some cases that is true. But you can also keep it in line such as parry with opposition.

That said, it is not always ineffective merely because your point goes away from the target. The master of this is Walt D., who has an uncanny ability to take you in four with a "classic" parry at which point you are f***ed. If you go back he controls you and advances while keeping you in four until he feels like hitting you, if you go in he'll wipe you aside and hit and if you do nothing he'll hit you straight away.

Realize that he is over 50 and took 3rd place at an open NAC last year, so he is no chump.

R-

[piste off]

My point is mainly that, just as people got on my case when I made sweeping statements about the usefulness of the backwards lunge and about tip angulation in parries, I feel that saying six is always better than four is inaccurate. I often find four better than six, and it's been that way against everyone I've fenced (it confused the hell out of the Italian fencers) for long time.

I think you would agree that six is the most mechanically advantaged parry for epee (which explains its popularity), no?

But I think the point is that four can be used quite effectively - especially when you consider its not as common. The trade-off is a good one, and I feel that for french-grip fencers the mechanics tilt in favor of the four dispite its drawbacks.

R-

[RITFencing]

[quote=piste off;747902I feel that for french-grip fencers the mechanics tilt in favor of the four dispite its drawbacks.[/quote]

I agree... if the opponent pushes back against a six parry, there is nothing behind the direction of the opponent's force, but with a 4, the whole arm can be used to resist it, which can help overcome the weakness of posting with a french, since the finger/hand strength is not as much of an issue.

[telkanuru]

Mmm, the thing I would mention involves the aforementioned tempo changes. I've been thinking about this a bit today (when I should have been working). I said before that the only way I've been taught (and can really conceptualize) using 4 is by cutting the tempo with forward motion. I guess what my real objection to is a classical 4 (with the step back and everything) which I see as an incredibly vulnerable parry which isn't more than an 'Oh crap' reaction.

[piste off]

I agree... if the opponent pushes back against a six parry, there is nothing behind the direction of the opponent's force, but with a 4, the whole arm can be used to resist it, which can help overcome the weakness of posting with a french, since the finger/hand strength is not as much of an issue.

That, and the simple fact that the four pushes the force into your hand while the six acts like a lever to "pry" it out of your hand.

Back to the OP, this is one reason why I hate prime (I mostly post with a french grip) beacuse it puts me into the worst position for the leverage to work against me. Not that it can't be done, it just is a bad position to get into, at least for me.

R-

[Allen Evans]

Back to the OP, this is one reason why I hate prime (I mostly post with a french grip) beacuse it puts me into the worst position for the leverage to work against me. Not that it can't be done, it just is a bad position to get into, at least for me.

I would agree that when posting a French grip, prime is a very poor choice of parries for that fencer.

AE

[epeelion]

Six is the most mechanically advantaged and safest parry in epee, true. But Telk, I'm telling you, your objection to a classical four is unfounded. It can be exeedingly useful, and is my fallback "oh crap" parry as well as a parry I use frequently with second intention. And I don't get hit with the straight fleshe to body very often (especially when I'm using a pistol) because of this parry. It's useful when stepping forward to cut tempo also, of course. But it's not nearly as vulnerable (or at least not necessarily more than others) if executed properly. Of course one CAN remise through it sometimes, but it's not like I take a four, then look at my watch and have a cup of coffee while I wait for someone to try to get through it. The riposte from it is extremely fast, especially because once you get to the correct parry position there is no real need to aim, your point should already be on target.