Problems with Prime against fleche in epee

[Allen Evans]

Thanks EL...pushing the blade forward in the parry is another common mistake, and one I forgot.

AE

[Durando]

Oh boy. I can tell already I'm going to take the direction I normally do. The initial situation suggested in the OP is completely rum. Deciding whether the distance is "close" or "long" against an opponent attacking with a flèche is absurd: in my book, a flèche must be a surprise or it is something else.

The proposed lesson is an overly technical solution to a tactical non-problem. If the distance is "close" and the flèche is competent no parry, sixte, prime or whatever will work. If the point penetrates at the right time, you're done.

A valid tactical exercise would be how to draw the flèche and what to do once you've done it. Even so, given the situation described in the OP, prime is an utterly absurd parry. If you've drawn the flèche, you need to have a quick response that occurs within the tempo and allows you a riposte. In a right-hander versus left-hander this is nothing other than a beat 6 or a beat 3. Imagining the depth of penetration necessary to effect a prime parry-riposte necessarily imagines an absurdly slow flèche.

The fact that is difficult to imagine how to riposte should be a clue that the action is absurd. (The "big, glaring thing" you are wondering about). Generally speaking if, as a teacher, you find yourself going down such weird paths you should ask yourself if there isn't a more simple, logical approach. Ask yourself what you're really trying to teach, catwood1, then adjust your lesson accordingly.

[MdA]

I have to agree with Durando in this case. If the prime is going to work, you need to draw the fleche when the distance is actually too long ...for the attacker. And then...as he says...ask yourself...why am I going down this tactical path in the first place. Prime is an emergency parry in most situations....a last resort...although some fencers are better at setting it up than others.

[epeelion]

Nah, I agree. Very few people can actually set it up. It's usually a backup for when I fleshe and get parried (as a sort of remise), or if someone takes a six-opposition attack against me from a bit too far out.

[griffindm]

Originally Posted by MdA

I have to agree with Durando in this case. If the prime is going to work, you need to draw the fleche when the distance is actually too long ...for the attacker. And then...as he says...ask yourself...why am I going down this tactical path in the first place. Prime is an emergency parry in most situations....a last resort...although some fencers are better at setting it up than others.

I disagree. First, the distance does not have to be too long. The defender just has to be prepared to retreat. Second, it is not an 'emergency' parry. It is a conditioned response to a (same-handed) 6-engagement moving down your blade. It relies upon the epeeist's natural disinclination to release the blade (disengage) once they have it captured. For those than can use it reliably it is anything but a "last resort".

As epeelion said, it is also used offensively as a secondary position to move to during a 6-bind fleche if you feel excessive return pressure.

[D'Art]

What's wrong with taking a blocking 4 parry* (with a slightly exaggerated amount of pronation to ensure a body hit if you somehow manage to miss the arm) and just leaving the point in the line of their arm, and letting them literally walk onto it? Or a beat 4 and riposte to the flank with a little side step to lessen the chances of the remise landing in time? I've even used a raised 7 beat-riposte to good effect at times, both with a riposte to flank and to the leg.

* I find this is more effective when keeping hold of the opponents blade, at least until your point is past their guard.

[acarter]

Chris,
I've looked at what you are trying to do and have to agree with Durando, you need to rethink what you are trying to teach. If you are too close and getting hit with a fleche the problem is not necessarily that you don't know how to defend that action. Maybe you shouldn't allow that action to happen at all. It seems to me what might be more important for your student is to keep proper distance so this is less likely to happen, and when it does, concentrate on good defense. Take a retreat and use the correct parry to defend this attack, the fact that it is a fleche does not necessitate prime. Choosing prime should be a response to distance and where your opponent is. Take these examples for what I might do given this situation.

Given a lefty fleching against me, I'd want to retreat and probably parry 6, I'd either riposte in prime, riposte in 6 to arm/shoulder, or riposte to back if they go past, depending on where they are on the strip in relation to me. Too close right in front of me says carry their blade and riposte in prime, not too close and in front or to my right and I'll straight riposte in 6, if they are passing me on my left I'll riposte to their side or back.

What if their attack isn't to my six line? If they are attacking high to my left (back shoulder, maybe) I'd make a hard beat 4 parry and riposte to their flank.

This is what works for me and the answer changes based on their attack. Prime is a last resort and if they are fleching to go past me, I am unlikely to be stuck in close needing to prime, I suggest the other parries as better options.

-Austin

I'm not sure I said all this very well, but I hope you get the idea.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by D'Art

What's wrong with taking a blocking 4 parry* (with a slightly exaggerated amount of pronation to ensure a body hit if you somehow manage to miss the arm) and just leaving the point in the line of their arm, and letting them literally walk onto it? Or a beat 4 and riposte to the flank with a little side step to lessen the chances of the remise landing in time? I've even used a raised 7 beat-riposte to good effect at times, both with a riposte to flank and to the leg.

* I find this is more effective when keeping hold of the opponents blade, at least until your point is past their guard.

In my mind, this has to do with positive and negative blade actions. A negative blade action would be one that by its very nature pulls your point away from the target when you do it. 4 is one such parry. Much better to close out the high line and take the shortest distance to target with your point moving forward.

Also, if you do a 4 with the traditional step back or even just standing there, you invite either a remise to leg from a lunging opponent or a angulaiton to chest against a fleching one. The former will be 70/30 a 1 light against you and the latter a 50/50 chance of the same, in my experience. The deeper you take the 4, the worse your odds.

Lastly, if someone disengages around a 6 parry, you still control the shortest path to your opponent's closest target. If someone disengages around your 4, they control the very same.

The one time I would advocate parry 4 is if you're using in conjunction with a tempo cutting step in or lunge forward, and the target in this case is the forward flank of a same handed fencer, which requires a flick to hit.

[catwood1]

I agree with you, D'art. I think a strong blocking 4 is the best idea. Idk why I wasn't thinking of that first. In the future I'l just use a 4 there, and let the flecher impale themself on the point.

Acarter, I still need to teach a defence against it. While I can ALSO coach ways to make it less likely the opponent will fleche, every fencer still needs to know how to defend against a fleche.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by catwood1

I agree with you, D'art. I think a strong blocking 4 is the best idea. Idk why I wasn't thinking of that first. In the future I'l just use a 4 there, and let the flecher impale themself on the point.

Sigh. I still remember my coach's very first lesson.

If the attack is at your 6, take the blade and hit me.
If the attack is anywhere else, hit me.

[keith]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

The former will be 70/30 a 1 light against you and the latter a 50/50 chance of the same, in my experience.

These sorts of numbers are totally dependent on how you line up against a same handed opponent. If you are fencing wide (both towards your right hand side of the strip) then yes the remise will have the advantage. If on the other hand you are very straight on then the remise becomes less of a worry.

Shifting the angles by adjusting your lateral position on the piste can also be part of the defense against the fleche. As well as a way to throw of your opponents distance/timing.

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Much better to close out the high line and take the shortest distance to target with your point moving forward.

How would you close this out? A raised 6 with riposte to the underarm or go for the flank? Or raised 5 and leave the point to get head-butted by the flecher, or drop the point slightly for a chest hit?

Also, if you do a 4 with the traditional step back or even just standing there, you invite either a remise to leg from a lunging opponent or a angulaiton to chest against a fleching one. The former will be 70/30 a 1 light against you and the latter a 50/50 chance of the same, in my experience. The deeper you take the 4, the worse your odds.

Which type of 4 are you referring to here? Even I, as a foilist know that there are several ways of taking any parry.

Lastly, if someone disengages around a 6 parry, you still control the shortest path to your opponent's closest target. If someone disengages around your 4, they control the very same.

I won't argue with that, but it's not as if it's difficult to overcome that disadvantage either way, though it's easier as the defender to overcome it.

The one time I would advocate parry 4 is if you're using in conjunction with a tempo cutting step in or lunge forward, and the target in this case is the forward flank of a same handed fencer, which requires a flick to hit.

To be honest, I'd say that the top of the arm would be a better choice, as long as you have good enough timing that you leave yourself the option of stepping diagonally as you riposte (or replace, depending how crap the first action was). In general, though as a lefty, and knowing how crap lefties are at covering their flank, I'd prefer to go for either a foil 5 (in this case, really a pronated 4 with the knuckles over to around 3 o'clock) and extend into the attack, which not only takes the attackers blade away from the body, but also allows a quick release with a bit of safety in order to supinate back to fix the point on if the initial riposte somehow fails, or, depending on the distance and timing I can even see a case for a sabre 4 and bringing the back foot in and dropping the hand for a mask hit. Not that I'd advise actually trying to set that one up....

[epeelion]

Telk, I disagree. 4 is an INSANELY effective parry, and quite underused. You can ask anyone at the AC what parry I normally take when someone makes a string attack. And this foreknowledge doesn't help. When done correctly, 4 is one of the most effective parries you can take. It also lends itself well to angulation. Six is also overused, and pretty much everyone knows how to yield out of it. Not so much with 4.

Of course, my coach is very Hungarian, so I'm biased. But never, ever, ever underestimate the 4.

[acarter]

I must not have been clear enough. I didn't mean that you shouldn't teach a way to deal with the fleche. All of my examples for what I would do, reflect things that can work against the fleche. I'm just saying that the way to deal with it isn't to give one simple answer to the fleche, because there isn't one. Treat it as a regular attack to determine what parry to use (probably 6 or 4, since most fencers fleche to high line) and work on the riposte with the fleche. The parry should be the same as it would be for any attack in that line IMO, the riposte may be different because the distance is collapsed or collapsing. Sorry I didn't get that out right from the begining. Let me know how it works out.

-Austin

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by epeelion

Of course, my coach is very Hungarian, so I'm biased. But never, ever, ever underestimate the 4.

Watch Jennet vs. Boczo (sp?) in the 4 of the olympics. You will see parry-4 fall continuously to a remise (2-3 times), resulting in a single light for Fabrice all but once (using that epee staple of lunge-fleche), and only then because Boczo basically executed a partial inquatata.

D'art- there is no way to take a 4 without bringing your point back. Similarly, there is no way to have the same reach on the riposte from 4 without leaving your opponent's blade (against a same-handed fencer).

As for teaching a defense against the fleche, I'm not a huge fan. If you can do an action going forward (hehe, envelopment in 6, transfer to prime), you can do it going backwards. Moreover, if you are hit with a properly timed fleche (as noted above) you can't do anything about it. That's the point of the action. If the fleche is improperly timed, it's the same as defending against any other attack. Why teach it specifically?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by D'Art

To be honest, I'd say that the top of the arm would be a better choice, as long as you have good enough timing that you leave yourself the option of stepping diagonally as you riposte (or replace, depending how crap the first action was).

Huh?

You can do a double flick to the side of the arm and the flank on your way in; that works pretty nice if you're not closing so fast.

If you can hit the top of your opponent's arm from 4, one or more of the following things are true-
-You've left your opponent's blade
-You're way taller than your opponent
-Your opponent decided to attack you with a bent arm.

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

D'art- there is no way to take a 4 without bringing your point back.

How so?

Similarly, there is no way to have the same reach on the riposte from 4 without leaving your opponent's blade (against a same-handed fencer).

Hence the pronation to push their blade slightly further out from your body, which not only gives you more time (albeit only slightly more time) to place your point, it also makes it slightly safer to release the blade, for the same reason.

[epeelion]

there is no way to take a 4 without bringing your point back

My turn to say it. LOL wut?

Watch Jennet vs. Boczo (sp?) in the 4 of the olympics. You will see parry-4 fall continuously to a remise (2-3 times)

Sure, it does happen. Especially if you only take 4, eventually someone will catch on. However, when people take six often the attacker yields into a prime. Every parry has its weakness, but I assure you four can be extremely effective. Like anything else in fencing, it can't be used exclusively, since there's no "unbeatable move" in fencing.

If you can hit the top of your opponent's arm from 4, one or more of the following things are true...

This just isn't true. Against right or left handers of any size, whether they pull their arm back or not. I have no idea why you think this, it seems strange to me. It is possible that you just don't often fence people who take a solid four, but I figure if it works against the likes of Alex Tsinis, Alex Abend, Soren Thompson, etc. it can't be too bad of a parry.

Why teach it specifically?

This I sort of agree with, except that some kids are particularly thrown off by people running at them. But in general, I wouldn't really teach a specific defense against the fleshe very often.

[Allen Evans]

Against opposite handed fencers fleching against me I've used:

An esquive,
A beat parry in 4 and detached riposte,
A blocking 4 and opposition riposte,
A croise in 4,
A prime, with riposte to the upper thigh,
A circular parry of 6 and riposte to the body,
A direct counter-attack (either straight or with flick).

...and all have resulted in one light touches for me under various conditions.

This isn't rock/paper/sissors in which <move of choice> beats fleche. To say that this works better than that seems to ignore just about everything fencing is.

The only real question here is catwood teaching an action he didn't seem to familiar with, and had problems diagnosing when it didn't work.

AE

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by epeelion

My turn to say it. LOL wut?

This is simple geometry. From en guard to any parry 4, your point moves backwards (not necessarily a lot) because your arm comes across your body.

As for everything else, I think there's a partial disconnect in what we are thinking about, and partially we're used to people fencing in different ways. Jeff's sig line always applies.