Do you watch lessons at competitions?

[MdA]

....

*I can’t think of any reason why you would need to use a release of any sort in Sabre.

Fencer cuts to head or chest and leaves arm extended with blade hovering over the target. Coach gives a light tap on the blade to simulate a quinte or quarte parry. Fencer recovers to guard or continues to the next action.

Come-on now, haven't you ever watched a lesson by Nazlymov? Hasn't done his fencers any harm...

....as far as "need"...it means wait for the parry and extend completely...before going to the next action.

[Jason]

Come-on now, haven't you ever watched a lesson by Nazlymov? Hasn't done his fencers any harm...

That's fairly difficult to assess, actually. Having successful fencers does not mean everything a coach is doing is harmless.

And the "need" you're suggesting is malarky.

[MdA]

....
....as far as "need"...it means wait for the parry and extend completely...before going to the next action.

...And the "need" you're suggesting is malarky.

...there is more "malarky". I was taught that the foil or sabre fencer should determine or read where the riposte (from the coach) is going during their recovery to the guard position...and then select the correct counter-parry.

Making the fencer stay out in the lunge....waiting for the "click" or release..prevents the fencer, from rushing back to guard and either guessing the counter-parry or recovering to the neutral hand position.

[Insipiens]

I think Kramer's question is "What realistic situation would cause a student to return en garde after hitting you?"

James.

Well if you fence foil on the "new" timings, you might well want to get used to the idea that you make a perfectly good hit and then recover to deal with your opponent's next action because your light did not come up.

[Jason]

Making the fencer stay out in the lunge....waiting for the "click" or release..prevents the fencer, from rushing back to guard and either guessing the counter-parry or recovering to the neutral hand position.

So does telling him to always keep his arm out for a moment after a cut to see if he needs to parry before relaxing it into en garde. The coach does not need to make a robot out of the student. The student can learn and understand how long to stay in a lunge or how long to remain extended.

[MdA]

So does telling him to always keep his arm out for a moment ......

How long is a moment....for a beginner....or an expert? Some coaches like to adjust this timing during a lesson....to slow them down...or speed them up. Otherwise you may get into a situation where the fencer is determining the speed and timing in a lesson...not the coach.

As we said before...the click is just one tool...you could do this with footwork...or the speed of ripostes.

[Jason]

As we said before...the click is just one tool...you could do this with footwork...or the speed of ripostes.

Both of which are more realistic and don't risk creating a "turn off your attention" response in the student.

[MdA]

Pirate's code..."guidelines".....

[oso97]

Interesting note. I see a discussion going on here, where one person in particular is making logical, reasoned commentary, and *gasp* evolving his views.

Another person though, is just never, ever wrong and never seems to need to consider alternate viewpoints...

Guess who would get my vote for best contributions to the topic at hand?

[Jason]

**monkey noises**

Thanks for the input, David. As always, your expertise in invaluable.

[oso97]

Thanks for the input, David. As always, your expertise in invaluable.

Well thanks Jason, I appreciate the vote of confidence. Its always a pleasure to read your well-reasoned commentary on every subject.

[jBirch]

Interesting note. I see a discussion going on here, where one person in particular is making logical, reasoned commentary, and *gasp* evolving his views.

Another person though, is just never, ever wrong and never seems to need to consider alternate viewpoints...

Guess who would get my vote for best contributions to the topic at hand?

Hey now!

Jason and MdA are both making logical, reasoned commentary too!

James.

[hologramqueen]

at this summer nationals watching Arkady(sic) give lessons to Sada. Talk about intense! Only issue I had with it was that she wasn't wearing any protective clothing.. only mask and glove.. sports bra and tights was what she was working out in..I have heard over the loud speakers at NACS that no lessons without protective gear.. No one cared because it was them? double standards? ANYWAY, it was awesome to watch.. plus some of the drills he was doing with her we hadn't ever seen before and he obviously gets results.. we did not interfere, just sat and watched in awe for nearly an hour!
in that situation, we were watching and acknowledging that he is a Olympic level coach and that she is an Olympic fencer.

[Adler]

Fencer cuts to head or chest and leaves arm extended with blade hovering over the target. Coach gives a light tap on the blade to simulate a quinte or quarte parry. Fencer recovers to guard or continues to the next action.

Come-on now, haven't you ever watched a lesson by Nazlymov? Hasn't done his fencers any harm...

....as far as "need"...it means wait for the parry and extend completely...before going to the next action.

Seeing that it would involve a flight over the Atlantic I have never had a chance to watch one of Nazlymov's lessons. I have however watched a lot of world/Olympic level coaches* giving lessons many of whom have had equivalent levels of success as Nazlymov without using any kind of release.

As far as my own experience goes I have never come across a situation where I have needed to use such a release even with beginners. I generally find that if you explain the reason behind having them wait on the lunge they cope with the exercise quiet easily.
When I'm giving a Sabre lesson I will either allow the cut to land or one of the following:
1) Allow the cut to land then attack whilst the pupil is still in the lunge.
2) Allow the cut to land and attack of my pupil’s recovery.
3) Allow the cut to land push the pupil along the piste and finish the attack.
4) Parry the attack and riposte

My pupil should:
1) Parry riposte on the lunge.
2) Recover parry riposte
3) Recover keep distance parry riposte (generally with some preparation)
4) Parry my riposte and counter riposte.



*If you want me to name names they include:
Peter Frohlich (British national Sabre coach and coach to 5 time world team individual champion)
Laszlo Szepesi (Former French national Sabre coach)
Akos Bodoky (Sabre coach to Bronze and Gold Olympic medallists, I think)
Laszlo Jakab
Norbert Jaskot (Polish Women’s National Sabre Coach)
Zbigniew Czajkowski (unfortunately never in person)

[Sean Butler]

Hi Adler,

So in case #1 and #2, how do the instructor and the pupil agree to wait in the lunge in the first case, and to recover in the second case? Are you agreeing to hold the lunge position for a certain count or something? Is there another cue you give for the pupil to recover?

I am no expert at fencing or coaching, but it seems to me a cue would be required if you want to control when the pupil holds or recovers. A click is just an agreed reset cue, isn't it? Like: "drill is complete, en garde". I can see the benefit of that, especially if you are not allowing the pupil to hit and so desire a phrase of action before a return to en garde. The instructor could give multiple other cues throughout the phrase to requre thought on the part of the student rather than just repetitive rote actions. The final cue would be the reset cue, the click.

I have followed the conversation for a while, and I guess I just wonder why something like this click would be a bad thing. Does it train a sabre fencer to stop fighting when the blades click, is that the argument against it? That argument seems a bit specious to me. If an instructor is teaching the student to stay in the drill until it is reset, this seems pretty good training for not stopping, rather than training him to stop.

[Adler]

Hi Adler,

So in case #1 and #2, how do the instructor and the pupil agree to wait in the lunge in the first case, and to recover in the second case? Are you agreeing to hold the lunge position for a certain count or something? Is there another cue you give for the pupil to recover?

Through body language and slight push forward as the coach attacks.

My main problem with the "click" is that eventualy your pupil becomes inured to them training them to have a short concentration span which becomes a problem when ,during a bout, the fencing phrase extended beyond the expected length.

[Sean Butler]

I wonder how true that is, that they become accustomed to stopping too quickly because of clicking the blades? My own coach uses a descision-point approach. Every action begins with a decision point where I decide whether he is attacking or counterattacking in time or out of time. Depending on that decision, I take different actions which he has pre-determined for me in the drill. However the drill doesn't end when I hit; we continue to repeat this until he stops and gives me a new verbal instruction. If a coach preferred to end a drill like that with a click of the blades, I don't see a problem with it; it certainly wouldn't create a short-attention span in the pupil.

I have seen the kinds of lessons you and Jason are railing against though. Usually it goes:

Predetermined action 1, click.
Predetermined action 2, click.
Predetermined action 1, click.
etc.

I would agree that these clicks are probably not necessary, but it strikes me that the problem with lessons of these sorts is that they are programming mostly muscle memory, and are not involving the fencer's brain enough. So, what I am saying is that this has less to do with the click being bad as the lesson not being engaging enough for the pupil to train both his brain and his muscles. Even so, some might make an argument for this mildly mind-numbing approach for younger students who need to learn to walk before they can chew bubblegum too.

[telkanuru]

In my experience, no 'click' has ever felt vaguely like anything that anyone has ever done in a bout, ever. I don't see how this would then set me up to stop/relax/not pay attention in an actual bout.

[oso97]

In my experience, no 'click' has ever felt vaguely like anything that anyone has ever done in a bout, ever. I don't see how this would then set me up to stop/relax/not pay attention in an actual bout.

Some would argue that any action in a lesson that is not completely identical to a bouting action should never be done...

[telkanuru]

Some would argue that any action in a lesson that is not completely identical to a bouting action should never be done...

Because coaches often deal with students who are too stupid to tell the difference between a lesson and a bout?