Do you watch lessons at competitions?

[jBirch]

I'm not sure what you're asking. How to get a student to bring his arm back after he's hit you? Just have him hit and bring his arm back. This doesn't require anything from the coach.

I think Kramer's question is "What realistic situation would cause a student to return en garde after hitting you?"

James.

[Jason]

I think Kramer's question is "What realistic situation would cause a student to return en garde after hitting you?"

James.

If you hit the coach--or attempt to hit the coach or opponent and fail--and the coach then does nothing, you should come back en garde. Depending on the situation, if the coach tries to attack or riposte (if he parried) you may want to come back en garde as well.

There are, of course, situations when the coach doing nothing means the student should hit again. It's important for the student to understand the context and what he should do in that context.

There is no real situation in which a fencer attempts to hit an opponent and then freezes waiting for a click to their blade.

A coach's goal should not just be to teach movements, but to teach decision making as well. The coach should encourage the student's (well-reasoned) autonomy.

[MdA]

This goes back to my original point on the click. I tell my student to either "recover on your own" or "wait for the click". You can do it either way...without permanent damage...just don't grab the blade.

[jBirch]

A coach's goal should not just be to teach movements, but to teach decision making as well. The coach should encourage the student's (well-reasoned) autonomy.

True, but there's nothing that says that every lesson must always do both.

Holding the lunge is a good way for the coach to test for balance and technical correctness after a touch is scored (or missed). Too, it teaches the student to fix the point and to observe their opponent for reaction after the touch has happened (or not!).

The student has worked to penetrate to the target and they should be taught to keep in there all the way, IMHO. Reflexive recovery is a much worse habit then the coach clicking the blade.

You want the student to be sure of the hit until the decision is made that the hit is, indeed, valid. Without some unusual movement to demonstrate that the phrase d'armes is over, the student should be taught to continue fighting for the touch and to assume that they haven't hit.

If you really want to stay realistic, I submit that "HALTE!" is what you're after.

James.

[Jason]

This goes back to my original point on the click. I tell my student to either "recover on your own" or "wait for the click". You can do it either way...without permanent damage...just don't grab the blade.

What are you gaining with the click? What understanding is the student developing? What is he learning other than passivity?

[Jason]

Reflexive recovery is a much worse habit then the coach clicking the blade.

This is a false dichotomy. You can have a student stay in his lunge and do things like check his balance, etc., without the need of a click.

[keith]

If you really want to stay realistic, I submit that "HALTE!" is what you're after.

Not always, while you may want a fencer to make a sequence of hitting actions* they should not always be pushing for a hit directly. Sometimes breaking back out distance is the appropriate action since it can draw a poorly timed attack from the opponent.





*this used to be more epee than foil but with the new timings.......

[MdA]

What are you gaining with the click? What understanding is the student developing? What is he learning other than passivity?

Jason, who told you not to click? Czajkowski?

[jBirch]

Not always, while you may want a fencer to make a sequence of hitting actions* they should not always be pushing for a hit directly. Sometimes breaking back out distance is the appropriate action since it can draw a poorly timed attack from the opponent.

Absolutely. The comment I made is around the use of the click as a deliberately unnatural and unrealistic action that is supposed to draw an unnatural and unrealistic RESPONSE from the student.

The student is fighting for the touch, the coach is moving correctly. There needs to be, in my mind, something to indicate to the student that they are to stop fighting (or drilling or whatever) and listen to the coach. Otherwise, the student should be taught to keep fighting.

In the vein of staying "realistic", the question becomes "What stops the action?" Jason seemed to imply (not deliberately, I'm sure) that the nominal end of the action is the touch (or the student being touched), which I disagree with. We want to teach the student to keep going, even if they think they've hit and correctly observe the response of their opponent, pessimistically believing that they missed, or their tip failed, or whatever...

Without the use of the click (or some other unnatural device to indicate a break in the activity) I was (somewhat cheekily) asserting that the correct, realistic "breaking" activity is the referee saying, "Halte!".

Otherwise, we're back to what Kramer is asking, "Why should a student do something unrealistic when all the coach can do is show realistic things?"

James.

[jBirch]

This is a false dichotomy. You can have a student stay in his lunge and do things like check his balance, etc., without the need of a click.

How do you tell them they're done and they're to return en garde?

"Hey Kid? You're done! En Garde!"

I prefer, "Click!" + next action.

James.

[keith]

"Hey Kid? You're done! En Garde!"

I prefer, "Click!" + next action.

Just stop and turn it around. How exactly is a student meant to tell the difference between click your done vs click "I just beat your blade" vs click "I just parried you attack"

All teachers employ a series of signals to tell a student to stop and go back to the beginning - there is nothing magical about adding the 'click'.

Of course with a particularly obtuse student you may be forced to resort to a swift hoof to the swingers.

[Jason]

Jason, who told you not to click? Czajkowski?

Reasoning told me not to click. If you're looking for a "big name" endorsement: Czajkowski is against clicking--and he's very pro-reasoning.

Who told you that you ought to click??

[Jason]

In the vein of staying "realistic", the question becomes "What stops the action?" Jason seemed to imply (not deliberately, I'm sure) that the nominal end of the action is the touch (or the student being touched), which I disagree with. We want to teach the student to keep going, even if they think they've hit and correctly observe the response of their opponent, pessimistically believing that they missed, or their tip failed, or whatever...

Quite the opposite, James. You cannot suddenly attack the student if you're clicking their blade. If you don't click, you always have the opportunity to suddenly execute a surprise action. The student is forced to always be ready.

[jBirch]

Just stop and turn it around. How exactly is a student meant to tell the difference between click your done vs click "I just beat your blade" vs click "I just parried you attack"

All teachers employ a series of signals to tell a student to stop and go back to the beginning - there is nothing magical about adding the 'click'.

Of course with a particularly obtuse student you may be forced to resort to a swift hoof to the swingers.

LOL! And I think that boils the argument down to its essence, right there.

My students know the difference between them because of the "clicking context": I'd never do the action in a place or time or tempo where a parry or beat made sense.

James.

[MdA]

Reasoning told me not to click. If you're looking for a "big name" endorsement: Czajkowski is against clicking--and he's very pro-reasoning.

Who told you that you ought to click??

My Hungarian Master Nick Toth used the click (release) in the foil lessons I took from him. He also used a release in his sabre and epee lessons. Ed Richards taught the click at Coaches College when I attended in foil. Gil Pezza taught it in epee at CC. Michael D'Asaro Sr. taught a release at the Coaches College in sabre...and most of my instructors at the German Academy of Arms including AAI President Mike Bunke....lotsa FMs use the click (release).

[keith]

My students know the difference between them because of the "clicking context": I'd never do the action in a place or time or tempo where a parry or beat made sense.

So why, exactly, is the click so important to the 'end of phrase' context? I seriously doubt there is no other signal given at the same time.

[jBirch]

So why, exactly, is the click so important to the 'end of phrase' context? I seriously doubt there is no other signal given at the same time.

LOL! Well, there kinda isn't: I just keep moving on with whatever it is we're working on. The click is just a formalism and stylistic thing. I could use anything else but this signal is easy, simple and clear so I use it.

I guess I just don't see it as being so horrendously bad as the rest of y'all. Though some of the examples of "badness" you guys have mentioned (clicking reflexively in between hits, for instance) seem mind-numbingly dumb coaching. The "spastic click" seems more symptom then cause.

James.

[Jason]

lotsa FMs use the click (release).

I would even suggest that most coaches use it. However, I doubt that many can make much of a methodological argument in its favor.

Similarly, most coaches give lessons in which their students don't wear jackets. Most coaches also don't actually try to hit their students when they want them to parry. I would argue against all of these practices, regardless of their popularity.

It's more important to look at the reasoning and methodology than at who's doing something.

I think you understand all of this very well. In fact, it sounds like your own use of the click is far more limited than what is most common.

Is it possible to have a zero-effect on your student's development while using a click (or other artificial stimulus)? Probably. However, since it doesn't add anything--and it includes a real possibility for detriment--I can't see any sense in using it at all.

[Adler]

My Hungarian Master Nick Toth used the click (release) in the foil lessons I took from him. He also used a release in his sabre and epee lessons. Ed Richards taught the click at Coaches College when I attended in foil. Gil Pezza taught it in epee at CC. Michael D'Asaro Sr. taught a release at the Coaches College in sabre...and most of my instructors at the German Academy of Arms including AAI President Mike Bunke....lotsa FMs use the click (release).

I think this may be a case of functional fixation.
Several world class coaches also smoke and drink heavily and live on a diet of lard because they do it does it me I should as well if I want to be a world class coach?

In the grand scheme of things the “click”* is relatively insignificant but it is important to consider the possible negative/positive consequences of using it.






*I can’t think of any reason why you would need to use a release of any sort in Sabre.

[MdA]

.....
Several world class coaches also smoke and drink heavily and live on a diet of lard because they do it does it me I should as well if I want to be a world class coach?

Wow, you must've known these guys. It is a struggle for a coach to move away from things that are firmly established...and really integrate new things. As I have said before...we tend to coach the way we were coached.

Jason, your right...I have tried to limit my use of the click in recent years because of arguments like yours...and others.

This brings me back to the original topic of this thread. Watching lessons by other coaches is very important for obvious reasons.

I would like to know what some of our current foil coaches are doing with the click...like Gershon, Petin, Pederson, Massialas, Itkin...haven't seen their lessons lately. I will ask them when I get a chance....possibly at the NAC in St Louis.