Do you watch lessons at competitions?

[MdA]

Then why click the blade at all? If you want to train them to recover at certain times, why not make those situations reflect what's happening in a bout? Create the actual circumstances that merit the reaction you want so there's a positive transfer of skills. After all, the opponent isn't going to click their blade.

I said earlier that I use it to simulate a parry. It can be done correctly both ways and I do it both ways. Sometimes I parry, and don't allow the hit and sometimes...when I am trying to build confidence and get the maximum number of good hits out of the student...I click.

I find it is a confidence builder when you allow the fencer to hit on every action...especially in a warm up lesson....they still continue into the next action. I can also hurry them up or slow them down with the click...especially if they are jumping back too quickly or falling short on the first attack.

[MdA]

I would agree it makes a fencer "turn off" in a sense, and I definitly wouldn't do it regularly as part of a drill. It just seemed like the simplist solution to some beginner level problems, like having the blade bend the wrong direction when you hit.

I stated earlier that for an absolute beginner you can use your hand to fix the blade. You can also correct the bend of the blade by capturing it with your bell guard and making it bend correctly...in the first couple lessons.

But I wouldn't make a habit out of it and I wouldn't do it in a warm up lesson at a NAC....or in your Moniteur exam...if you did it you should be able to explain that it was "for beginners only"

...some coaches grab the blade everytime the fencer hits in the wrong place...this is definitely not good!!!

[Jason]

Because nobody will ever grab your blade in competition. It is a penalty. It is not a natural fencing movement...the feel on the blade is totally wrong...you are taking control of the blade away from the student.

I said earlier that I use it to simulate a parry. It can be done correctly both ways and I do it both ways. Sometimes I parry, and don't allow the hit and sometimes...when I am trying to build confidence and get the maximum number of good hits out of the student...I click.

I find it is a confidence builder when you allow the fencer to hit on every action...especially in a warm up lesson....they still continue into the next action. I can also hurry them up or slow them down with the click...especially if they are jumping back too quickly or falling short on the first attack.

There is a conflict in the two views you're putting forward.
Why simulate a parry when you can actually parry? If you want them to feel like they can hit, just let them hit. The clicking isn't adding anything to anyone's confidence. A student knows when he's hit early enough to beat a parry and when a coach just clicks his blade.

[Allen Evans]

MDA, why do you say using the offhand to grab the blade is so bad?

Another good reason, which MdA hasn't mentioned, is when you grab a beginners blade, their instinct is to pull back, leaving you with a hand full of metal splinters.

Grabbing the student's blade and putting it where you want them to hit does nothing to ensure that their next hit will go there. There isn' any meaningful feedback to the student other than the visual appearence of the blade on the correct target. *shrug* You can accomplish that simply by telling them or pointing to your target, with no risk to your off hand.

AE

[MdA]

There is a conflict in the two views you're putting forward.
Why simulate a parry when you can actually parry? If you want them to feel like they can hit, just let them hit. The clicking isn't adding anything to anyone's confidence. A student knows when he's hit early enough to beat a parry and when a coach just clicks his blade.

We have already mentioned in this thread that there are different types of lessons. If you want to make the lesson more bout-like than give a "bouting" or "tactical" lesson.

I find the click is useful in a warm up or teaching lesson. Some lessons are mixtures of different types of lessons with a major theme. So after we warm up, and start to make the lesson more like a real bout....I can eliminate the clicks and do real parries....or not do the parry and allow a real hit.

There may be a conflict...but I think the student can handle the transition from warm up...to bouting or tactical lessons. I often explain (to students in my lessons) that some things in lessons don't represent real bouting conditions...like multiple remise drills.

So during the warm up, I may actually want to slow them down and make a few corrections...that is when I want them to wait for the click...before they recover or go on to the next action.

Heck, yesterday, my most experienced student's hand was too high during his warm up. I had to slow him down and make him do several repetitions with the hand lower...in this case I did not click...I made him thrust thru a counterattack to flank...so I guess it all depends...

I think the point we are trying to make in this thread is...don't click after every hit...or grab the blade...and some coaches never transition from the "teaching" lesson.

By the way...this is good discussion...thanks Jason

[telkanuru]

There isn' any meaningful feedback to the student other than the visual appearence of the blade on the correct target.

Some would view that as meaningful feedback.

Most coaches I've seen use the 'click' when working on form, and never in the substance of the lesson

[jBirch]

Quick question...

Can we define what, precisely, we mean by the term "click"? We're talking about a nuanced activity here and I have a funny feeling we're not all seeing the term in the same way.

James.

[telkanuru]

Hum. What I mean is the coach makes a slow parry (usually circle-6) which arrives very late against a torso attack, hits the blade lightly, and then goes away.

[MdA]

Quick question...

Can we define what, precisely, we mean by the term "click"? We're talking about a nuanced activity here and I have a funny feeling we're not all seeing the term in the same way.

James.

Good question...I use a light tap on either side of the blade...some folks use what I call a "blade capture" using the (coach's) blade and the bell guard into the curve of the students blade. This fixes the students blade in place momentarily....this is the bad one....almost like holding the blade with the unarmed hand.

[Jason]

We have already mentioned in this thread that there are different types of lessons. If you want to make the lesson more bout-like than give a "bouting" or "tactical" lesson.

Regardless of the type of lesson you're giving, your student benefits more and has a greater transfer of skill if you make your movements real and relevant. It may be necessary to move more slowly, but the student still gains the most when the movement is real.

At best, clicking the blade is meaningless; at worst, it's detrimental. Plenty of very successful coaches click their students' blades. It's clearly not so disastrous a habit that it completely cripples the students' development. However, a student isn't gaining anything from it and, potentially, he is being trained to lower his attention.

If you want a student to slow down and make some correction, why not just say something to him and then let him continue again without training him to wait for clicks every time? If you want him to speed up, why not give him a reason to--either by creating a bout-like situation that requires him to speed up, or by telling him, for example, to recover more quickly?

One or two words of verbal instructions results in the student making the correction but maintaining the attention and autonomy that can be compromised with clicking the blade.

By the way...this is good discussion...thanks Jason

Any time.

[oso97]

*chuckle* why do I start to get the feeling here like I'm watching an exchange between a Polish sabre coach and a Russian sabre coach about what constitutes an attack?

[Kramer]

Other then the Click Release, what about engaging your students blade in 6and slide down into the bellguard to signal a return to onguard. The student stays in the hit untill released with this. After returning to onguard, the coach stays engaged in students 6 til he cues another action.

[keith]

Other then the Click Release, what about engaging your students blade in 6and slide down into the bellguard to signal a return to onguard. The student stays in the hit untill released with this. After returning to onguard, the coach stays engaged in students 6 til he cues another action.

If I have an engagement in sixte I would expect to make a hit. This can be useful to ensure that the student keeps sixte closed as they recover, but if they end up en guarde with your foible on their forte they should probably be making an immediate riposte, either direct or with a disengage.

[MdA]

If I have an engagement in sixte I would expect to make a hit. This can be useful to ensure that the student keeps sixte closed as they recover, but if they end up en guarde with your foible on their forte they should probably be making an immediate riposte, either direct or with a disengage.

I agree. This is more "unrealistic" than the click. I use it sometimes but only for absolute beginners.

[Kramer]

Then why click the blade at all? If you want to train them to recover at certain times, why not make those situations reflect what's happening in a bout? Create the actual circumstances that merit the reaction you want so there's a positive transfer of skills. After all, the opponent isn't going to click their blade.

Give some examples, I could see how to do this with footwork, but what if your working on a warmup with no footwork?

[Allen Evans]

How are you warming up a student without using footwork?

AE

[stritti]

Well I think it is ok to watch and be watched by others , but more at all you should talk together and then we are on the right way.

[oso97]

How are you warming up a student without using footwork?

AE

I can think of a number of ways to warm up for fencing without footwork, but they usually involve a group class

[Kramer]

How are you warming up a student without using footwork?

AE

Starting out on bladework and then moving the lesson into bladework/footwork. My thought is to start as simple as possible and build onto it. I dont spend a lot of time on just bladework. I could reverse it and start with no bladework and with just feet.

How do you start your lessons?

[Jason]

Give some examples, I could see how to do this with footwork, but what if your working on a warmup with no footwork?

I'm not sure what you're asking. How to get a student to bring his arm back after he's hit you? Just have him hit and bring his arm back. This doesn't require anything from the coach.