Do you watch lessons at competitions?

[Jason]

Heh, some of these mistakes are made by folks who've produced Olympic medalists!

darius

Being a successful coach is a lot like being a successful fencer: you don't need to be great at everything, you just need to excel at some things.

A lot of successful coaches do things in training that aren't helping their fencers at all--sometimes even things that are detrimental--however, other elements of training are strong enough to make up for it.

It's extremely worthwhile to break down the training practices and environments of top coaches in order to separate the quality from the crap, rather than assume what a lot of coaches and fencers do, that just because some coach has top fencers, everything he does must be right.

[DangerMouse]

This has been bugging me for a bit...

The concept that a coach has a "super secret" technique that they only show in the dank recesses of their club is asinine, IMHO. Coaching is about a lot more then knowledge. First and foremost on that list is your relationship with your students and the specifics of your interaction with them.

If you're afraid to share your knowledge, can you really consider yourself a competent coach?

James.

My original post was a bit tongue in cheek. I'm an academic and hate any limitations on information, including the high cost of journals and books for libraries. My point was just that if the person watching the lesson was doing so in order to get some insight into the capabilities of my student rather than to expand their own knowledge, if they succeed my lessons must be too repetitive.

[catwood1]

OK, while I feel dumb asking this, but:

Why is it so bad to use a blade click as a release? It seems like a good way of instilling the idea of finishing solidly, and not just "jabbing" at the opponent/coach.

Obviously, there are times when you shouldn't use a release like that. (Stop hit parry riposte for example where the student hits twice.) But for some actions I don't see why its such a mistake.

[MdA]

Note the comments in this thread…

Posters seem to think there are a lot of bad lessons being given at competitions out there. Here are a couple helpful hints. If you notice other coaches watching your lessons…and you occasionally get a good comment or a helpful question….or some discussion….you are probably doing something right.

If you notice other coaches watching your lessons…and nobody ever says anything to you…….

At the summer nationals in Austin a few years ago, I wanted to get a good seat in the bleachers to watch the Div 1A women’s foil final. I was tired, so I went to sit in the bleachers by the finals strip before the bouts were announced. While I was sitting there, one of the finalists got a warm-up lesson from her coach. I was in shock! Here was this guy, giving a lesson on the raised finals piste, in front of all these people. I would have to say, it was the worst foil lesson I had ever seen in my life….I won’t get into the details…but lets just say, that just about everything IMO, was wrong.

I was curious to see how this fencer performed during the finals. She didn’t win her bout, but I was surprised to see that her fencing looked nothing like what I just saw in the previous lesson (to her credit it was pretty good). I wondered how this could happen and I thought long and hard about how this coach could possibly be helping her.

He was also strip coaching her during the finals and I was sitting nearby. I don’t think anything he said had anything to do with what was going on in the bout. I decided that some fencers succeed in spite of their coaches….or maybe I was just in a really bad mood.

[telkanuru]

At the same time, with a high level fencer, this can be a good way for the coach to show off some things in an environment designed to intimidate opponents. I remember a NAC in which I watched an FC coach give one of his fencers a lesson with multiple flicks, followed by a strong take in second, all done at very high speed. To say the lesson was intimidating is an understatement.

Sometimes the scouting report just says "This one's gonna be a pain".

[Allen Evans]

Why is it so bad to use a blade click as a release? It seems like a good way of instilling the idea of finishing solidly, and not just "jabbing" at the opponent/coach.

In no particular order;

* It shocks the student's arm for no reason, and can often cause a student to tighten up their shoulder to "brace" for the hit.

* It's unrealistic, and prevents the coach from giving another cue in a timely manner, especially when the student is faster than the coach.

* It prevents the student from learning how to make a solid hit on their own.

These are just off of the top of my head.

AE

[darius]

Some musings on a relatively insignificant thing, but why not?

* It shocks the student's arm for no reason, and can often cause a student to tighten up their shoulder to "brace" for the hit.

Only if you do it hard.

* It's unrealistic, and prevents the coach from giving another cue in a timely manner, especially when the student is faster than the coach.

This is actually the catalyst for my not using a blade click as much. When I realized that some students weren't fighting beyond the initial action, I decided to make them hit on the first action and then still get back for the counter-riposte. To my surprise, I found myself instinctively clicking the blade on the first hit. Since we train students to do things deliberately, not instinctively, that struck me as a bit hypocritical.

* It prevents the student from learning how to make a solid hit on their own.

It shouldn't. A blade click should be after the fact, verifying the hit, not setting it.

First, I'd like to draw a differentiation between the blade thwack (used by some asian and german coaches that I've seen) and the click to release. The thinking behind hitting the blade hard is that the student must fix the point on target hard; if it can be batted away that's no good. I don't buy it -- I'd rather attempt to parry the blade; if the attempted hit is weak, I'll bat it away before it hits me.

The click to release makes a lot of sense in a place where you're having the student hold the hit. It's unrealism isn't really an issue -- it's unrealistic to hold a lunge too, yet we do it, because we need diagnostic information that can best be acquired by the held lunge. (In sabre it's easier; you can make multiple counter-ripostes from the lunge so can test its balance and maintain a "realistic" scenario.) As far as its shock value; it should feel like a coach's cut into a closed line in sabre - striking the student's forte and sliding down to the guard, which means that it doesn't create a lot of tension.

darius

[jBirch]

The "click" isn't just a "click" to dismiss...it also "follows" the guard back to the en garde position so that the coach can see/feel the recovery as well as the initial hit.

James.

[Allen Evans]

I don't have a problem with a soft tap on a beginners blade after an action. I rarely see a soft tap, however, except at the most beginning of lessons.

The biggest catalyst for me was realizing that I just can't keep up with some of my students if I'm taking the time to make a release. So, just like in saber, I work more towards accepting the hit and making a "riposte" and forcing the student to immediately recover the arm and make a counter riposte. The release also becomes a habit that is difficult for the coach to break when they need to do something else.

I'll occasionally substitute a late parry for the release, but often I'll just absorb the hit and keep moving on.

JBirch...I'll occasionally follow the student's blade back to the student's on guard position in a warm up with a beginner, but I usually try to move away from it as soon as I can. I think it often causes fencers to unconsciously close their guard a little more than they need to in order to "parry" my blade. Doing the follow thru has some utility at the start of a student's career, but may (imho) simply push the student into another bad habit eventually. It's a lot like working from engagement. I try to move away from engagement as soon as I can so the student gets use to working without that crutch. I'll bring any of these actions back if the student needs it, but I don't like to make a habit of them.

AE

[jBirch]

I don't have a problem with a soft tap on a beginners blade after an action. I rarely see a soft tap, however, except at the most beginning of lessons.

The biggest catalyst for me was realizing that I just can't keep up with some of my students if I'm taking the time to make a release. So, just like in saber, I work more towards accepting the hit and making a "riposte" and forcing the student to immediately recover the arm and make a counter riposte. The release also becomes a habit that is difficult for the coach to break when they need to do something else.

I'll occasionally substitute a late parry for the release, but often I'll just absorb the hit and keep moving on.

JBirch...I'll occasionally follow the student's blade back to the student's on guard position in a warm up with a beginner, but I usually try to move away from it as soon as I can. I think it often causes fencers to unconsciously close their guard a little more than they need to in order to "parry" my blade. Doing the follow thru has some utility at the start of a student's career, but may (imho) simply push the student into another bad habit eventually. It's a lot like working from engagement. I try to move away from engagement as soon as I can so the student gets use to working without that crutch. I'll bring any of these actions back if the student needs it, but I don't like to make a habit of them.

AE

Yeah, I do the same thing when the lessons go fast. Are you saying you see coaches who reflexively click after EVERY TOUCH? That's just crazy. Usually it's HIT, DISTANCE, TARGET, HIT again and again. I only click if I want my student to "stop" after a hit for some technical correction and that's only if I want to get them to go back to guard for some reason.

[edit] To clarify, the click comes after the stop as a signal to get the student to go back to guard for some change in the lesson. If I want the student to "freeze" the hit then I also freeze after the touch. [/edit]

I like to set up with a good guard, do the lesson and make any corrections, then return to guard at the end. The click, in this case acts as a "ready?" and a "we're done" signal.

James.

[Jason]

The click, in this case acts as a "ready?" and a "we're done" signal.

Which is exactly the problem with it.

[MdA]

I still use the “click” or release in foil but I am using it much less. I don’t use it much in epee. I also avoid hard hits on the student’s blade. With advanced students the release gets smaller and softer…or totally eliminated for many combinations.

I still use it in the warm up portions of my lessons with my long-time students. They grew up with it and are familiar with it so we still do it a little…but then we transition into combinations without it.

In the old days of the flick and the flying attacks it was probably a good idea to train fencers to get back to the guard position instinctively with a “click” or a release. With the new foil timings and the rise of the remise or redoublements…it is not such a good idea to train someone to recover automatically after a (simulated or attempted) parry.

There are a couple actions that really drive me crazy and which I think are absolute no-no’s. The coach grabbing the fencer’s blade with the unarmed hand….unless you are working with an absolute beginner and are just helping them aim the weapon at the appropriate line. And, fixing or capturing the fencer’s blade with the bell guard after the hit…or worse yet…capturing the fencer’s blade with the bell and grabbing it with the unarmed hand simultaneously.

This does not represent (sensory… feel like) any real fencing action and just teaches the fencer to freeze or stop…in the middle of actions.

[Adler]

This does not represent (sensory… feel like) any real fencing action and just teaches the fencer to freeze or stop…in the middle of actions.

The same can be argued about the "click", it would be better to sometimes test the pupils readiness by a sudden attack on their recovery requiring an unannounced parry riposte. Some acceptable actions the coach may choose to do at the moment of the hit include:
1) No reaction
2) A delayed step backward
3) A late parry
4) A late counter attack

Personally I would only use a late parry if I wanted my fencer to finish their attack faster.

The idea of using an unrealistic movement to get an instinctive reaction from a fencer is in my opinion absurd.

[MdA]

....
The idea of using an unrealistic movement to get an instinctive reaction from a fencer is in my opinion absurd.

I disagree. The click or release should feel like a parry. There is a reason to recover in foil, and that is when you have been parried.

In this case, the "click" or release is given after a successful attack has landed.

The fencer gets the benefit of practicing a valid attack and also gets to practice the response to a very quick parry.

The instinctive response is the same...the opponent parried my blade. In most cases...and especially for beginners building a foundation...they must recover the arm to react.

I think I am using the click the same way you are using your late parry.

I also use the other options you mentioned in your post...but as others have noted...once you start the habit of clicking....it is hard to stop...so be careful out there.

[Jason]

The fencer gets the benefit of practicing a valid attack and also gets to practice the response to a very quick parry.

Except that what he is actually practicing is turning off his attention. "The coach just clicked my blade. All done now." Clicking the blade isn't at all preparing him to fence as though he was just parried. If you were just parried, the last thing you would want to do is turn off your attention. If you want to train the fencer to respond to a parry, then parry (and, of course, riposte).

There are a lot of rationalizations for clicking the blade, but the reason so many coaches do it is the same reason that they do most things: it's what they've always seen other coaches do.

[MdA]

Except that what he is actually practicing is turning off his attention. "The coach just clicked my blade. All done now." Clicking the blade isn't at all preparing him to fence as though he was just parried. If you were just parried, the last thing you would want to do is turn off your attention. If you want to train the fencer to respond to a parry, then parry (and, of course, riposte).

There are a lot of rationalizations for clicking the blade, but the reason so many coaches do it is the same reason that they do most things: it's what they've always seen other coaches do.

There is certainly a lot of "thats the way we've always done it" involved in my use of the "click" or release. That is the way I was taught as a fencer and in my early days as a coach.

However, I have stated that I am moving away from it and encourage the other methods to recover or continue. As we know methods improve and should be constantly updated...we should all keep up...not be afraid to change...for the benefit of our fencers.

I have to disagree that my fencers are "turning off their attention". When I use the click in combination, we often do multiple actions after the first click...don't do multiple clicks in combination.

If they are "turning off" I don't seem to notice it because we are immediately going into another action...like a counter-parry reposte...or pulling the distance with several retreats and initiating another attack...or even a stop thrust with counter-parry reposte.

[Jason]

When I use the click in combination, we often do multiple actions after the first click...

Then why click the blade at all? If you want to train them to recover at certain times, why not make those situations reflect what's happening in a bout? Create the actual circumstances that merit the reaction you want so there's a positive transfer of skills. After all, the opponent isn't going to click their blade.

[catwood1]

MDA, why do you say using the offhand to grab the blade is so bad? I will use my off hand to grab the blade if its in the wrong position. For example, is they are hitting me to close to the back shoulder instead of the front, I find it easiest to use my offhand to show them where I want them to hit me. Or if I am showing a beginner the way their blade should bend when they hit me, I use my off hand. Why do you have a problem with this?

[MdA]

MDA, why do you say using the offhand to grab the blade is so bad? I will use my off hand to grab the blade if its in the wrong position. For example, is they are hitting me to close to the back shoulder instead of the front, I find it easiest to use my offhand to show them where I want them to hit me. Or if I am showing a beginner the way their blade should bend when they hit me, I use my off hand. Why do you have a problem with this?

Because nobody will ever grab your blade in competition. It is a penalty. It is not a natural fencing movement...the feel on the blade is totally wrong...you are taking control of the blade away from the student.

It makes your fencer stop...or "turn off" as Jason says with the click...but I think this is even worse than the click because you are using your hand instead of the blade. You should try to do everything with your blade in a lesson...or with distance (no blade..no hand).

Finally...it has been discouraged in all the coaching courses I have ever taken...for the reasons listed above.

[catwood1]

I would agree it makes a fencer "turn off" in a sense, and I definitly wouldn't do it regularly as part of a drill. It just seemed like the simplist solution to some beginner level problems, like having the blade bend the wrong direction when you hit.