"Reactions" screaming, taunting, unsportsmanlike tantrums are beneath the sport.

[bestinhouse]

OK, I'm new here, and this is just my opinion. But a sport I once loved has somehow turned clowny and undignified.

I'm 51 years old and fenced at Ohio State and the NCAA tourneys 30 years ago, and there was none of the screaming, posturing, taunting, insulting, mask-throwing, in-your-face bellowing, squealing, gesturing, rip-off-your-mask-stride-to-the-end-of the-piste-turn-to-the-crowd-shake-your-fists-while screaming bull crap that I saw in the Olympics.

OK. One exception. One kid from Illinois was the only guy I saw in my career act like this. Everyone I knew thought he was the most immature, childish, and most unsportsmanlike fencer we'd ever seen. It stood out. Don't get me wrong, he was a good fencer, but I recall one bout I had with him where he lay down on the strip and pretended to have a debilitating hand-cramp (He was down 2 points at the time). I'm happy to say I beat him when he finally got up, stopped blubbering and decided to face me. I even shook his hand afterwards, in spite of the fact that he tried to turn away and stomp off the strip.

But "back in my day" we fenced, grunted and groaned under our masks, & scored touches. We didn't rip off our masks after every touch and get in the other guy's face, or turn to the judges and kneel down and shake our fists and scream. When it was over, we took off our masks, shook hands, walked back to our seats as either winners or losers. About the loudest it ever got was the Sabre guys yelling "Alllayyy" as they did a fleche, but Sabre guys, well, we all know sabre guys...

But let's compare fencing to other sports. I'd guess everyone has seen this kind of rude and behavior before, playing pick-up basketball, pick-up soccer or sand-lot football, and it usually ends up with the smart mouth getting his teeth knocked in by some insulted player. And yes, it bothered me to see a big mouth jerk lying unconscious on the ground, his body trembling uncontrollably as bloody drool came out of his mouth.. but that's what sometimes happens to big mouth jerks.... unless they are fencers...

So imagine my surprise when I tune in to Beijing, and now almost everyone is acting like spoiled, childish, screaming a-holes. I was more surprised the big mouths never got a fist in their face for it (I guess fencers are supposed to tolerate big mouth jerks?) Yes, I did see a few of the athletes at Beijing who retained their dignity and sportsmanship on the fencing strip, and maybe the dignified guys represent the majority of fencers. But more often I saw fencers scream and whine, toss their masks, refuse to shake hands after the bout, and shout in the faces of opponents after scoring a touch or defeating them. It's wasn't sportsmanlike in any means, and, in my opinion, was shameful and denigrated the sport severely.

Why should this be? If you've been paying any attention to high school / college basketball and football (in fact all other sports), the coaches and referees today require the athletes to refrain from cursing at other players (you can get penalized for it) and you can't taunt (they'll throw a flag), spike the ball or celebrate in the end zone. Games are lost for this kind of behavior, and its good for the sport that these rules exist to keep players in all other sports from acting in the infuriatingly infantile manner I saw grown men and women fencers act in Beijing. It's against the rules to be an idiot in all other sports except for professional wrestling... and fencing. In basketball and football, the players even line up after the game and form two lines and shake each others hands and say a few words. It's called: Sportsmanship.

In the military it's called "comportment": your sense of bearing, presence, your mein, your sense of dignified manner or conduct. In the military, you can be disciplined or even dishonorably discharged for losing your comportment with your team members. And that's a basic rule for people who kill others for a living! But not for fencing?

In fencing, this trend towards unsportsmanlike crassness could easily be controlled and stopped, by having rules against it and having the fencing judges take points away for this behavior. My point is, it's not "just happening," it is being widely encouraged, either by the lack of rules, or by the lack of will in those charged with enforcing the rules. This sad unsportsmanlike behavior is the result of a decision by the fencing community and rules-makers who encourage it. In fact, if you go to NBC's online Beijing fencing coverage, these childish, bratty displays are celebrated as "best reactions" ... Hmm. I guess "Reactions" is now doublespeak for "A-hole-ishness."

Look. Anybody who was in the sport 35 years ago knows you didn't need to scream, yell, taunt, and act like a prick to be the best fencer on the strip.

I can even point to an instance where the LACK of yelling and screaming might have save a life. (oh, boy, I can hear you saying.. the old guy is about to tell a story... ) Yep. But when I fenced, nobody yelled and screamed like this. I am am one of the few fencers who ever "ran through" an opponent with a sword, and could have killed the other fencer. I'm glad I didn't and I don't wish the experience on anybody, but here's the story..

In the Big-ten Championships in 1981, I was fencing Brian Peterman in Epee. As I made a toe attack, he stepped on and broke off my Epee, but it only broke the very tip. There was no blade singing through the air, no short-circuit made the buzzer or the light on the electric scoring machine go off, not a single thing happened to tell me or Brian that the blade had broken. Just the tip and the small stainless steel collar came off, leaving a very sharp, small point on the stiff epee blade. As taught, having missed the toe, I moved forward and attacked the knee. Slick as if it were greased, the sharp tip entered above the knee and came out of the back of his calf. I didn't even feel any resistance. Zip down, withdraw... and no scoring buzzer. So I pressed my attack. As taught, I stepped closer and stood up, so we were mask to mask now, my arm high, the sharp tip pointed at his mask, ready to thrust and score. Brian didn't scream or yell, but I'll never forget what happened next. In a quiet, steady voice, Brian said: "Jeff, Stop." Something registered. I could see Brian's eyes looking at me... "Jeff, Stop." That was enough...

And I stopped. Brian collapsed to the strip, blood drained out into his double knits (yes, the "blood groove" works!), and that ended that. (Brian recovered to become an all American at the NCAA's that year (the Big Ten coaches agreed to let him go, due to his injury. I, on the other hand, was freaked and promptly failed to beat two chumps and didn't qualify advance from the Big Ten Championships to the NCAA championships... which, being my senior year, ended my fencing career.)

But the moral of the story is this: Had we been fencing in today's "SCREAM and YELL" environment, with it's taunts and insults - I doubt anything Brian could have said would have stopped me from sticking that sharp epee tip through his mask.. and maybe right into his pleading eye...

So don't tell me that how fencers behave on the strip doesn't matter. It could mean life or death.

So. I'd like to see people answer the following questions:

1) When did this trend start?

2) Why do you think it is tolerated?

3) How does this kind of behavior fit in with the "athletic chess-match" analogy so loved by fencers? Do chess players act like this?

4) Are the majority of fencers loud-mouth tantrum-throwers? If not, how is it fair to those who are sportsmanlike and who demonstrate comportment to have to tolerate this kind of distracting, unsportsmanlike conduct?

5) Do you think this is this some effort to make fencing more "media friendly" by making it more tasteless or less boring for viewers who know nothing of the sport? Why should the fencing community care if fencing lacks mass appeal, if this is what it costs?

6) For you supporters, please defend how it helps the sport to allow fencers to behave in this manner. Sell me on it. Should there even be rules on fencer's behavior, as in other sports?

7) Are the judges simply ignoring the rule book? Are any specific FIE or Olympic rules being broken when a player engages in this type of behavior?

8) If there aren't any rules begin broken, what rules would you suggest be drafted to put a stop to this kind of behavior? Or, how could the existing rules be improved to put a stop to it?

9) Finally, for those of you who do this - what are you thinking? How does this relate to your sense of comportment, and your sense of dignity? Also, what are you trying to accomplish by acting in this manner? Do you think it helps you to win? At what cost?

10) Finally, for you coaches and judges and rules-makers, what will it take to stop this? Someday somebody is going to react to a taunt, and the insulted party might just have a sword in his hand, the the big mouth might have his mask off. Your acquiescence in this may someday get a competitor killed. Impossible, you say? Players have been injured severely in other sports as a result of reactions to unsportsmanlike conduct. Why should your sport be different? What will it take to wake you, and the sport up to the danger?

Of course, you are free to your own opinion. Maybe I'm just an old fuddy-duddy who just doesn't "get it," and I'm spoiling all fun for all the fencers who want to look and act like spoiled three year olds. But for me, I've been there, I've seen the blood firsthand and I know what can happen in just the blink of an eye.

And, to be honest, I'm embarrassed for the sport and for you all.

Feel free to contact me, correct me etc....

Jeff Spellerberg, Los Angeles, CA. bestinhouse@hotmail.com

[TexasLady]

Wow, I'm with you all the way that such behavior is beneath us. My guess is this is a side effect of a society in which "heroes" are those who thump their chests and scream their greatness to the world a la professional wrestling. No doubt, the media therefore picked those with the worst behavior to showcase, making it look as if it were common to the sport.

At a tournament a week ago (my first) I only saw one individual who behaved in an obnoxious manner such as you described. I must admit to spending a lot of time staring at him in an open mouthed, horrified way. I also did find it irritating and distracting. However, he was the only one I noticed. Everyone else was very polite and sportsmanlike. Indeed, I was impressed with how many people were willing to sort me out since I was so clearly in over my head. And they did it without making me feel embarassed about my inexperience, true tact right there.

I for one would never behave poorly because it would offend my dignity and my coach would kill me. Personally, I do not believe that behavior such as you mentioned should not be allowed and if it does become prevalent there should be a system in place to stop it in its tracks. Maybe a red card for the first offense then straight out the door.

[epeelion]

SEARCH FUNCTION!!!

Seriously, I'd be inclined to think this was a joke if not for the sheer length of your post. This has been done to death.

Honestly, to begin with, you are WAY over the top. Some fencers are as*holes, sure, but the level you're describing generally does not happen. All is relative. Perhaps it just seems drastic to you because of what you were used to.

Anyway, I happen to know plenty of people your age who think the yelling is a great thing. I love it. I love screaming for my team, and yelling when I get a good touch and/or I win. So do soccer players. So do basketball players. So does Usain Bolt. So do football players. So do baseball players. So do hockey players. See a trend here?

It's a sport. There's yelling. It's good thing. I've had one training partner almost exactly your age tell me just yesterday that he wishes he could yell (it's just not in his personality), and that he thinks it's one of the things that can really make a champion. Do you see how much more physically intense fencing is now? There's an incredible buildup of physical tension during the bouts. Everything is much, much more intense.

Your examples of why not yelling could save a life are, to me, a huge stretch, but I won't go into that.

As for your questions

1.) Not sure, why does it matter?

2.)Because it's part of the sport, it doesn't hurt anyone, and very few people are so irked by it.

3.) Do chess players run up and down a strip trying to stab each other with 35 inch-long pieces of steel? Come on, seriously? This question is a joke, right?

4.) No. Methinks you have a very low threshold for what is loud-mouthed and tantrum-throwing.

5.) No. It's an organic, natural reaction to the intensity of the sport.

6.) DO you watch sports? Honestly? Athletes in every sport act like this, at least on occasion. It's not a question of helping or hurting the sport (though you can be sure that it's more exciting to people when fencers actually seem to care about winning or losing), it's a question of how intense the athletes are. Of course there should be, and are rules. When someone gets out of line, they can and should be (and are) enforced. I also don't see why I all of a sudden need to "defend" my sport against you? Don't like it? You don't have to yell.

7.) No. Unless you're Inq. Disturbing order is the only rule regarding yelling (other unsportsmanlike conductwarrants a black card, of course). And it is not meant to be interpreted in the way Inq. would like it to be (Inq. is the resident curmudgeon on F.net).

8.) This question reeks of the assumption that everyone agrees with you and wants to put a stop to it. You're wrong.

9.) I really hate the tone you take in this whole post. Look, I have no idea who you are. It doesn't matter. Yelling out of joy when I win or when I get a particularly good touch is natural, and it helps me focus. It helps cheer my teammates on. My opponents do it too, and that's absolutely fine. It's a SPORT! When I beat my friend or he/she beats me, and we've both been yelling, we shake hands, maybe hug, then sit down and cheer the other on. It has no bearing on general comportment. The tone you take is one of disgust and superiority. It is unnecessary.

10.) I'm also a coach, and a referee, so I'll field this one too. I deal with athletes. Athletes get excited. Athletes yell. Intensity is good. And for Christ's sake, stop trying to pull the "it might kill someone" argument. It's weak, it's ridiculous, and it's pathetic.

You're free to your opinion too. And I'm embarrassed for you as well. Especially for the fact that 1.) you don't know how to use a basic search function and 2.) that instead of posting a short remark or question, you posted an insulting, condescending diatribe.

[Lady Quindecim]

Oh, Look! Yet another thread on the subject!
I have no idea what I would have done with myself had another week gone by without a new visit to the issue.
(Yes. I am being ironic or something to emphasize the usefulness of the Search Feature. vBSEO's search engine is among the best of any BB's I -well- search. No offense, eh?)

[epeelion]

Yeah, I answered because of the particularly obnoxious tone. But it seems like there's a new one literally every month, at least.

[kuroutesshin]

tl;dr

I am becoming extremely jaded with the unprofessional, unhelpful, unsportsmanlike behavior by some people on this board. Responding to his supposedly "condescending diatribe" with little more than ad hominem and ignoratio elenchist attacks does not speak very highly of your own response, especially when your only rebuttal is "learn to use the search function and STFU GTFO."

I am further becoming increasingly unhappy with the seeming uselessness of this discussion forum, where many get their first glimpses of the wider fencing world, when it is populated by a chattering class of unhappy elitists who shout down anyone who has the unmitigated gall to ask questions.

Jeff, for one, thank you for your post. It was, to date, the most interesting and comprehensive one I've read on the subject of strip vocalizing.

[Cookeit]

I scream, especially when I score a touch on an old man.
Jaykay.

[epeelion]

Seriously? Where was the ad hominem?

I found the tone of his post to be extremely arrogant. I responded, but I also responded in a certain tone that made clear my disdain for the tone that was taken. If his post had been, perhaps, written in a less inflammatory manner, without the automatic assumption that everyone thought as he did and that everyone that didn't should automatically be ashamed of themselves, I may have responded differently.

He did not ask questions. He accused. There is a large difference. There are ways of asking questions, but when it's your first post in a discussion forum populated by many intelligent people, and it basically amounts to "you should all be ashamed of yourselves", you should not expect people to respond particularly kindly.

As you said in your snip, you apparently didn't read, since I addressed every single question. Aside from the "if you yell you might die" claim. I could have just said STFU. I didn't. I spent time responding to the entire post. AFTER pointing out that one should use the search function, because we literally have a new post like this every month. I think that's a perfectly valid thing to suggest.

[Lady Quindecim]

Oh, that's okay. I don't mind. Personally, I learn more from listening than talking, or in this case, reading than writing... except that I am typing now... so it is kind of ironic. Not to mention the fact that every time I, or someone, replies, the thread jumps back up to the top. I agree that it was a fine post, but if one of the other threads was resurrected instead of a new one being started, then we could have taken it in context with all the other good (and bad) comments. And here I go, posting a reply that is completely off topic. Mercy. (Gee, and everyone knows that I NEVER do THAT. <--- sarcasm... again)
Ok... I'll go away now.
Post on.

[epeelion]

It is possible that I reacted too harshly. I am accustomed in other forums to stronger language and a strong dislike for that sort of post. I apologize If my post seemed out of line, but as a relatively high level competitive fencer, who trains with a large majority of the highest level competitors in the country, I take offense to someone coming in and saying "you should be ashamed of yourselves" instead of just "why is it like this?".

[MyrddinsPrecint]

First off, you're comparing apples to oranges--- they're very similar, but they're not the same. There isn't as much screaming in major college tournaments these days (although I assume there's more than you're recalling from your days), and there was probably more "reaction" during the time you were fencing in international competition, especially the Olympics.

Second, there have been a LOT of threads about this, and the locals are getting a bit antsy on the threads we've seen a lot recently. I can't forsee the future, but if this thread drifts as early as it might, and you want "real" answers, use the search function for "screaming".

Third, I find it REALLY weird that you think screaming is inappropriate, but thing that the urge to want to punch everyone who's making some sort of reaction to be natural and usual. Now, I make noise sometimes, and I want to punch people sometimes..... but I think that the serious desire to see someone punched out is a lot more inappropriate than screaming. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt-- I will assume that in your incredibly long post, you just got a bit worked up and somewhat misstated your actually beliefs and feelings.

3) How does this kind of behavior fit in with the "athletic chess-match" analogy so loved by fencers? Do chess players act like this?

Many analogies are flawed. Just because fencing isn't like chess in this one aspect doesn't mean that fencing needs to change. There's also no queen in fencing, it doesn't mean we need to get out the glue gun and put one on each of our bells.

4) Are the majority of fencers loud-mouth tantrum-throwers? If not, how is it fair to those who are sportsmanlike and who demonstrate comportment to have to tolerate this kind of distracting, unsportsmanlike conduct?

Let me be clear- The current culture of fencing means that most fencers think that you can make some sort of noise on strip and it's possible that it's not unsportsmanlike. Many think it's unnecessary or dumb, but it's not assumed that just because you made a noise, you're rude. On the other hand, most people don't think that all screaming, noise, tantrums, etc, are fine. Most people have a line somewhere in between "grunted loudly, probably wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't been a foot away" and "told me that I'm a **** , took off his mask and mimicked having sex with it while screaming 'yes' ".....

I've had people deliberately hit me hard enough to leave a bruise for a month (and I don't bruise.) I've had people barely shake my hand. I've had people throw masks after losing. I find all of these things very much not sportsmanlike. I've fenced people who I thought their reactions were over the top, but I've personally never fenced someone when I thought their reactions (yelling, etc) were unsportsmanlike. But that's me.

7) Are the judges simply ignoring the rule book? Are any specific FIE or Olympic rules being broken when a player engages in this type of behavior?

There are rules. But the rules are nonspecific. Unsportsmanlike behavior isn't allowed. Disturbing order on strip isn't allowed. But the definition of either of those things are up to the ref. As it should be, because as soon as you make either of those more specific, you will be eliminating something that's not really that bad-- like screaming in pain when seriously injured-- and more importantly, omit something that is a problem and make the ref unable to penalize for it. Should the reading of the rules as suggested by the FOCs, FIE etc be more critical of reactions? Better question.

10) Finally, for you coaches and judges and rules-makers, what will it take to stop this? Someday somebody is going to react to a taunt, and the insulted party might just have a sword in his hand, the the big mouth might have his mask off. Your acquiescence in this may someday get a competitor killed. Impossible, you say? Players have been injured severely in other sports as a result of reactions to unsportsmanlike conduct. Why should your sport be different? What will it take to wake you, and the sport up to the danger?

One of the kids on my high school fencing team was a serial rapist. Not only did he sexually assault a girl most of the fencers knew, he also raped one of the most active members of the team. That has nothing to do with fencing. The FOC shouldn't try to make a rule to prevent fencers from getting raped. It wouldn't work very well.

People who do unsportsmanlike things have done something they shouldn't. That doesn't mean they're responsible for being assaulted. And it certainly doesn't make the USFA or FOC responsible.

The only one responsible for someone's actions are the person who makes the action. Otherwise you're not just blaming the victim, you're blaming a whole lot of other people.

[noodle]

fencing didn't exist before 2000, becuase before the year 2000, i'd never seen fencing before. back when i was a kid, before the year 2000, i never ever saw any fencing. therefore, it didn't exist.

[Fechter1]

Ya know, after being called an a-hole, prick, etc, I spent a bit of time composing a scathing reply... I had a few nice zingers all lined up (including a good set of direct or veiled ad hominems). But then I thought, why bother? If he's just being a troll, I woulod not want to feed him... If he is serious, his tone indicates that he would only take such a reply as vindication of his point of view.

So all I'm going to say is this: It happens, and unless it's disrespectful, or disturbing, it's not against the rules. You don't have to like it, but you do have to tolerate it if you want to fence, especially in competitions

[mrbiggs]

In the Big-ten Championships in 1981, I was fencing Brian Peterman in Epee. As I made a toe attack, he stepped on and broke off my Epee, but it only broke the very tip. There was no blade singing through the air, no short-circuit made the buzzer or the light on the electric scoring machine go off, not a single thing happened to tell me or Brian that the blade had broken. Just the tip and the small stainless steel collar came off, leaving a very sharp, small point on the stiff epee blade. As taught, having missed the toe, I moved forward and attacked the knee. Slick as if it were greased, the sharp tip entered above the knee and came out of the back of his calf. I didn't even feel any resistance. Zip down, withdraw... and no scoring buzzer. So I pressed my attack. As taught, I stepped closer and stood up, so we were mask to mask now, my arm high, the sharp tip pointed at his mask, ready to thrust and score. Brian didn't scream or yell, but I'll never forget what happened next. In a quiet, steady voice, Brian said: "Jeff, Stop." Something registered. I could see Brian's eyes looking at me... "Jeff, Stop." That was enough...

I loled.

[piste off]

I can even point to an instance where the LACK of yelling and screaming might have save a life. (oh, boy, I can hear you saying.. the old guy is about to tell a story... ) Yep. But when I fenced, nobody yelled and screamed like this. I am am one of the few fencers who ever "ran through" an opponent with a sword, and could have killed the other fencer.

Jeff,

You are mistaken if you think that "nobody yelled and screamed like this" when you fenced - assuming that was ~30 years ago. I've been fencing that long and what I saw in the latest Olympics was no different (well, OK maybe sabre is different!).

Regarding your story, it is suprising to me that you did not stop fencing after the tip broke, let alone going though on the first action. Forget the screaming... how about a little presence of mind?

R-

[Coldfire]

OK, I'm new here

'Nuff said.

[Phrogger]

Couple of reactions here.

The level of yelling, shouting and posturing seemed excessive at the Olympics. I don't see it much at the local level. Most of us figure that if they're at the Olympics, they can do whatever the heck they want.

When did the trend start? When fencing started gradually moving away from an elitist, white man's pasttime and started taking itself seriously as an athletic event. I think if you spent enough time studying the modern game you could see past the differences and appreciate it for what it's become. I, for one, am in love with not only the mind game, but also the sheer athleticism of the top competitors.

The good news for you is that there are probably enough classical fencers left around for you to enjoy the game you left behind 30 years ago. You might even find some here.

I am further becoming increasingly unhappy with the seeming uselessness of this discussion forum

While the "general" forum has been a bit dull lately, there are some productive (if less read) discussions over in the coaching forum you might want to check out.

[piste off]

Anyway, I happen to know plenty of people your age who think the yelling is a great thing.

I'm close to his age.

There is a right way and a wrong way to "screaming." Done right, it is a great thing. Done wrong, it is obnoxious and counterproductive.

Unfortunately, I can't define what is right and what is wrong. It's kinda like I know it when I see it (obviously "Ace Ventura-like" celebrations lean toward the "wrong").

That said, I agree with epeelion that it can be a great thing - and I admire it as it relates to competitive spirit (not ref influencing or opponent mocking).

BTW - when I fence, I rarely make a peep (except when exhausted, to acknowledge a good touch, or a rare "kiai" type expression).

R-

[Downtown]

I am becoming extremely jaded with the unprofessional, unhelpful, unsportsmanlike behavior by some people on this board. Responding to his supposedly "condescending diatribe" with little more than ad hominem and ignoratio elenchist attacks does not speak very highly of your own response, especially when your only rebuttal is "learn to use the search function and STFU GTFO."

I would have to agree. Rep for you.

[epeelion]

Unfortunately, saying "use the search function and GTFO" is not even close to what I said. It's clear that you just agree with the OP, and therefore will take any criticism as, well, unfounded.

I made various rebuttals, and no ad hominems. I did not say that his arguments were wrong because he was being condescending, I merely pointed out that he was being so.

Do people seriously not understand the tone of that post? Good grief, this is frustrating.