"Reactions" screaming, taunting, unsportsmanlike tantrums are beneath the sport.

[bestinhouse]

Epeelion - I accept your criticism - before I posted, I tried to find other posts, but I just started sorting through the main topics and didn't see one covering this (maybe it could use its own category if it keeps popping up by NOOBS like me) I started paging down in the GENERAL posts and didn't see one for 4 pages or so, and I certainly failed to SEARCH and find the other posts before I wrote my post... So, thinking I had a new and important thing to say, I didn't search the word "screaming" and posted my brilliant new thing that nobody had ever thought of before. That's my bad. Touch scored.

Of course, I've found the other threads and am glad to see it's been worked to death. Two touches to zip.

All the rest of you "How to Post a Thread Nazis" are free to waste your breath telling me I don't know how to post a thread and you'll be right. But I won't award any points for that. Of course, you can score touches by saying something about the thread. And I give Epeelion 10 more touches for putting his opinion out there so well - I disagree with it, but it's clearly his opinion, well played, and I respect that.

I am sorry if you find what I say condescending, I tried to make it clear that it's just my opinion of what it looks like to me, and I think I was condescending. Touch scored. 14 to zip.

But maybe the judges should confer on that last touch. Its' hard not to sound condescending when I find it the behavior in question so embarrassing and contrived and damned childish that I think it makes fencing just look stupid. I'm now a bit embarrassed to say "I fenced in College," when, I wasn't before I watched the Olympics. Before Beijing, I was online, looking into buying an electric epee, and thinking of coming back to the sport. I thought it might be fun, I'm older, and it might not be too hard, I can run 10Ks, and blah, blah, blah...

But after watching Beijing I was truly distressed at seeing the sport appear to be taken over by what (in MY opinion) were self-centered narcissistic egotists, yelling to try to influence judges or upset their opponent. And they were great fencers! I just didn't get it! I mean, I get it when chumps resort to this sort of stuff, but now the good guys are doing it? WTF? Now I might have been overwhelmed because of the NBC sports coverage - they don't understand fencing, but EVERYBODY understands childish fits of screaming and yelling, so NBC will certainly show a lot of childish fits of screaming and yelling. Great for the sport, eh? From reading the threads, there are those who think it is...

But, like I say, with the exception of one guy from Illinios who could barely control his behavior, back in my day it just didn't happen, at least not at the lower NCAA level in the Big Ten where I competed. Maybe they've been doing it in the Olympics all along and I'm just talking out of my ass when I say it never happened. That's why I wanted to know when it started. Maybe it's been going on all the time and I was just a naive Ohio farm boy who somehow missed it.

I'm not talking about grunting or going "arrh!" like some female tennis players do when they make an effort. And I'm not talking about the little shout in French ("ET la"?) as you score. I'm talking about the fist pumping over-the top clowny theatrics after the touch. Yelling at the back of a fencer's head when he walks away. Shouting to his face, pulling off the mask and going to the end of the strip and kneeling and shouting a primal scream to the crowd. Give me a break. Winning and not offering to shake the loser's hand. I used to fence, and it looks embarrassingly stupid to ME.

Now I've looked at some of the other posts and I see where you or others claim "they can't help it or stop it," and they have to shout. I feel (in MY opinion), that's just, for want of a better term, bull**** (and I don't mean that to insult you or the others - I mean it in the best tradition of bull****, which, as a lawyer, is a verbal art I value and use from time to time to my advantage). The reason I think it's bull**** for you and others to say you can't control it, is because its my opinion what you really mean is that you want to do it and you decide to do it. Anyone who has had children knows what I'm saying. It's your choice to be a screamer, and its pretty obvious that (just like a child) its done to try to gain an advantage in a contest, to intimidate the opponent, or to influence the judge. It doesn't "just happen" that a guy pulls off his mask, turns to the judges and pumps his fists and yells. Give me a break. I don't care how good you are or if your hero did it at the Olympics. It's a choice, and not just on the level of the shouter.

I am also of the opinion that if there were a rule against it, and if the judges would enforce it, every one of the SHOUTERS and screamers and theatrical clowns would stop, or they'd have to quit fencing. They could and would control it. Yes, some may make a noise when they lunge (especially us old guys, and it ain't pretty!), but the stepping back and yelling bull**** can be controlled.

And no, it's not a "natural part of the human psyche" or "instinctual behavior in a combat setting." If that were true, fencers would also be throwing punches, tripping the other guy, knocking him on his back and pulling a shiv out of their boot to slice open his throat to win. Fencing is a martial art, which means its a combative sport, and which means it has rules, and sportsmanship is a rule just like any other. There is a rule against punching and tackling the other fencer, and guess what? Miracle of miracle, everyone can control themselves and nobody throws punches or tackles the other guy, no matter how much their primitive hypo campus tells them to.

So that means the rules could be used to control this aspect of the sport. The people in your camp (the minority(?) of screamers and intimidation shouters who say "if you don't like it, so much the better for me") could be overruled and controlled IF THE NIE or if whoever makes the rules decided to act, and if the judges enforced it. They don't act, so they condone it. In MY opinion, they could put a stop to an ugly trend, and force the toads who watch NBC back into the depths of incomprehension ("Hey Marge, Ah don't git it! Weren't this Fencing thang last year the sport where they had the baby tantrums and fist pumps? What th' hell??? Change th' channel to Big Time wrastlin'!") Who needs, or even expects the general population to understand fencing when they can barely understand the rules to "Survivor"?

Also, it's not a tradition (in MY experience) that goes back to jolly old england or the days when they fenced without electric equipment, and you "had to shout" to let the judge know you'd scored. My father fenced at Ohio State back in the 1940's without electric equipment (they used lightly-barbed tips with cotton wadding dipped in a marking dye, pretty cool actually) but they never screamed and yelled then, and he says that wasn't how it was done at that time at Ohio State and the NCAA's he went to. When I got to college my teammates didn't engage in these theatrics either. So, unless I was in some bubble (very possible - we're talking OHIO here), it's something new that fencers have started to do. When did this all become accepted? Who's writing the history of this sport, and can I get the book from Amazon?

Finally - I don't think I'm being ridiculous or overstating the case when I say I could have killed Brian that day. I've relived that moment many times in my mind, almost in a kind of "A Separate Peace" "did-I-shake-the-tree-branch-from-under -Pheneas" kind of way, wondering what kept me from thrusting my blade into Brian Peterman's mask. I've always wondered what might have happened, and glad I don't know. I know the experience really shook me up that day, and it stopped me from fencing after that. I was upset over running-through his leg and seeing blood, but that wasn't what really gnawed at me. I was more upset that I almost stuck that sharp needle through his mask. I remember standing there, face to face, with the damn point aimed right at his eye. I was in the heat of battle, pumped up, full of adrenaline, wanting to get to the NCAA again "kill the guy" mode. It was only his words, delivered just at the right moment, softly, quietly, sanely, that stopped me. And I know I was never good at a light touch - I was ready to thrust at his mask and try to really zap him. I loved mask shots in Epee that rocked the other bastard back on his heels. Stun 'em in the mask, and you've hit him in his primal core. Now I know it's a one-in-a-zillion chance that I could have killed him even if I'd poked at his mask, but sometimes that one-in-a-zillion chance happens, and that's what got to me. People have been killed in the sport of fencing, and that's the kind of situation that causes it. And that's MY opinion. You can SHOUT about it all you want, and tell me it's not my opinion, but I've run a guy through, and I've lived with it and something tells me you haven't. It doesn't make me better than you, or make me right about the shouting thing. But I'm just glad the shouting thing wasn't in our world back then, because I was able to hear Brian and I was able to stop.

And yeah, I am a sanctimonious absolute moralist old fart who thinks that being a taunting a-hole on the strip lacks class, makes fencing look infantile, and there should be a rule against it, and I don't get why there isn't. In MY opinion, leave this crap to the World Wide Federation of Wrestling. Fencing doesn't need it, and fencing should stop putting up with it.

[Cookeit]

Oh man.. I wish I could type my college essays that fast.

[bestinhouse]

Phrogger - thanks for this reply:

When did the trend start? When fencing started gradually moving away from an elitist, white man's pasttime and started taking itself seriously as an athletic event. I think if you spent enough time studying the modern game you could see past the differences and appreciate it for what it's become. I, for one, am in love with not only the mind game, but also the sheer athleticism of the top competitors.

This makes sense to me, and you might be right, my coming from the Pleistocene ages and being a white guy who doesn't get the "in-your-face" aspect of "winner-take-all" sportsmanship. I'm showing my age and my naivety in human nature when I expect otherwise, although I like to think we had a lot of athleticism back then as well, even if nobody ever showed up to watch.

[Cry_Me_A_River]

You should do what I do.
When some son-of-a-***** start screaming after every touch, go out to your truck and grab your crow-bar.
Go right up to the bastard and start smashing the back of his/her head in with the crow-bar.

When they fall, stand over them and scream, "DIE DIE!!!!!" as you continue to rain down blows with the bloody, brain covered crow-bar.

When their body becomes life-less... continue to smash the skull. Smash until there is blood, skull, and brain fragments up and down the piste.

SMASH SMASH!!

The feeling you'll receive after standing upright covered in that sweet, sweet liquid we call blood knowing you showed that mother****er to shut his/her god damn mouth is astounding.

[noodle]

Phrogger - thanks for this reply:



This makes sense to me, and you might be right, my coming from the Pleistocene ages and being a white guy who doesn't get the "in-your-face" aspect of "winner-take-all" sportsmanship. I'm showing my age and my naivety in human nature when I expect otherwise, although I like to think we had a lot of athleticism back then as well, even if nobody ever showed up to watch.

so that you don't have to dig through the mountains of other threads on this topic --

look at tennis. tennis players grunt and scream on the court all the time, and there are also people in tennis that say that they shouldn't. and yet they do, and most people who play modern tennis actively don't object to it. as a former competitive martial artist, people did it there, too.

in a highly competitive, high emotion, high adrenaline, highly physical one-on-one competition, emotions come out.

having said all of that, i can count the times i've screamed in a bout on one hand.

[telkanuru]

Seriously? Where was the ad hominem?

That's my job.

OP- **** off and die.

[epik99]

fencing didn't exist before 2000, becuase before the year 2000, i'd never seen fencing before. back when i was a kid, before the year 2000, i never ever saw any fencing. therefore, it didn't exist.

LMFAO

[bestinhouse]

Noodle - good point, and I have nothing against grunts and groans. I'm 51 for god's sake and I grunt and groan just getting out of my chair. But what you're talking about is a noise made in relation to physical effort, during the bout, and I agree with you. Whatever you gotta do, man...

But they don't allow tennis players to scream after every point, run up to their opponents screaming in their face, or run to the back of the court, fall to their knees and make clenched fists and make a primal scream to the crowd (OK, I think McInroe used to do this, but that's not what you were saying), or scream directly at the tennis referee, making a stupid gesture (not arguing a point, but just screaming) to influence the outcome of a point?

Yah, they complain about line calls, and try to make their case when the call goes against them... but these theatrics after every point? I don't think so. (McInroe excepted!)

[bestinhouse]

CRY ME A RIVER --

SMASH SMASH!!

The feeling you'll receive after standing upright covered in that sweet, sweet liquid we call blood knowing you showed that mother****er to shut his/her god damn mouth is astounding.

Too firckin' funny... Thanks - that was great...

[foibles]

look at tennis.

I remember watching McEnroe in his early days. The TV camera spotted Clint Eastwood in the audience. They sent a pretty blond with a hand mic his way. "What do you think of McEnroe's behavior?" she asked.

"I've seen this sort of thing in actors that I've directed" Clint replies. "They use screams, antics, arguing, or whatever it is they need to emotionally keep themselves hot, to stay at the height of their game. As a director, you allow it, and understand it, and move on."

It was such an unexpected, well thought out answer I've never forgotten it.

Until that very moment I'd thought (as did most the world) that McEnroe was a spoiled, annoying brat.

I don't yell or pump my fist. I don't yell Opo, opa, or et la.. But I do understand that different people might employ different ways of staying "in the zone" and agree that a scream done for the right reasons at the right times can be an ok thing.

Done at the wrong times for the wrong reasons it can also be quite detrimental. It's a sports psychology thang.

[noodle]

Noodle - good point, and I have nothing against grunts and groans. I'm 51 for god's sake and I grunt and groan just getting out of my chair. But what you're talking about is a noise made in relation to physical effort, during the bout, and I agree with you. Whatever you gotta do, man...

But they don't allow tennis players to scream after every point, run up to their opponents screaming in their face, or run to the back of the court, fall to their knees and make clenched fists and make a primal scream to the crowd (OK, I think McInroe used to do this, but that's not what you were saying), or scream directly at the tennis referee, making a stupid gesture (not arguing a point, but just screaming) to influence the outcome of a point?

Yah, they complain about line calls, and try to make their case when the call goes against them... but these theatrics after every point? I don't think so. (McInroe excepted!)

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/..._470x317,0.jpg
http://www.protennisfan.com/images/federer_shout_1.jpg
http://www.protennisfan.com/images/rafa_shout.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...shout300ao.jpg
http://www.secsportsfan.com/images/k...elebration.jpg
http://blogs.abc.net.au/thesportsdes.../23/hewitt.jpg
http://www.secsportsfan.com/images/k...lebration1.jpg

eh?

[ESLyon]

I have to admit I'm a little scared of posting here... hang on I'm going to go find my flame-retardant suit...

BIN I can see where you're coming from and for what it's worth, I think you wrote quite well, and any quotes that may seem condescending I think were merely out of frustration and not lack of tact. I far too often fall victim to my own frustration and accidently offend people who cannot see past my concerns.

I too thought that some people at the Olympics were over the top with their celebrations. I do not object to the shouting or exclamations of achievement when one has scored a touch, but there were a few cases which, to ME, were downright unsportsmanlike. The French epeeist... *looks it up because I forgot the bout* Fabrice Jeannet, after he won a bout in the individual DE's, I can't remember the exact one, started celebrating and walked up to his opponent and screamed in his face whilst the other man held out his hand for a shake. Fabrice continued to walk past him and celebrate, leaving his opponent in disrespect by not shaking his hand, screaming in his face instead, and then walking off. He did return after and shake his hand, but the initial action appalled me. They even showed it again in slow-mo. THAT kind of screaming/celebrating/shouting I think should be punishable.

That being said, I think that 95% of the fencers out there when they scream/shout are only doing it to let out emotion and possibly for gamemanship (sp?). I think as long as proper respect is given before and after a bout then a good deal of emotion should be allowed. Think about it, if someone trains for years and years to get somewhere and they finally win, all of their work has paid off. Now I dunno about you, but personally I would be pretty dang excited and would find it hard to contain myself.

Sorry for any mis-info I may have on the Frenchy... *dons flame-proof suit*

[bestinhouse]

Piste off said:

Regarding your story, it is suprising to me that you did not stop fencing after the tip broke, let alone going though on the first action. Forget the screaming... how about a little presence of mind?

Yah. Easy to see it that way, I guess. And easy for it to roll off your tongue like I would just do such a thing.. "not stop fencing after the tip broke..." Well I wish I'd heard it break or felt something that clued me in. I never experienced anything like it, I went for a toe touch, and how many times do you just break off the very tip, and it stays under the guy's foot? You're used to breaking a blade every other way, and you hear it zing through the air. But this wasn't that way. I suppose the metal was fatigued, but the blade was flat against the copper strip and under his shoe, and it broke right where the stainless steel collar of the button attaches to the blade as I came up. The tip stayed under his foot, I guess. Nothing flew across the room or hit the floor. We were fencing, and I was pressing my attack - it wasn't even like the blade was shorter or anything like it always is when you break a blade. odd thing... I was doing what I was trained to do, moving forward, toe, knee, mask...

So Piste off, I guess you're free to think that I'm some kind of total dumb ass "that did not stop fencing after the tip broke." Think about that. Really roll that one around in your brain and think what you're implying and how insulting it is. Who the hell would do that? What does that notion look like when you try to flesh it out, to envision what kind of reality you're implying? Think about yourself and everything you learn in fencing, and try to picture being a guy who would not stop fencing after your blade broke. Picture yourself fencing on if you knew your tip broke. Would you? And just what would be your next move, with that deadly weapon in your hand? Would you suddenly come up with a plan to just disable a guy, in the second or so since you broke your tip in a completely random moment? For god's sake! "Have some presence of mind..." I mean c'mon, get real! If you know the blade has broken, you stop. But first you have to know it broke.

But you know, you're not the first. Your comment reminds me of my coach that day, who came up and berated me in the same way. "Why did you do that to Brian?" "What were you thinking?" Man, did that ever f''k with my head. Like I would try to hurt the guy, hell we were friendly when we were off the strip, he was a good guy. I was just fencing and trying to get to the NCAA and the next thing I knew Brian's on the floor bleeding. But I remember my coach all bent like I did something wrong on purpose, shaming me, and then he conceded the bout, which was tied at the time. Coach was shook up. I get that, it was shocking for everybody. And that's the kind of guy he is I guess. Yelling at someone who's had an accident, like I could or would willfully keep going to stab a guy in such a f'd up manner. Who could do that? Why would I do that? It kept me from going to the NCAA that year, I was one bout short, thanks to coach. That and I let myself buy into his bull****, and shame myself. Before I knew it, a chump or two beat me before I got back into it... too late... Brian never held it against me, he was the guy I stabbed and he knew it was an accident and said so even before he left the strip.

So for all you guys who are coaches out there, if your fencer hurts another guy and it's an accident, help the poor mook out, try not to be judge and jury. You've got us out there fighting with swords. Accidents will happen and by their very nature, they won't be on purpose, they can't be avoided, and they will happen fast. That's what an accident is. And for Piste off, if you have kids, try and have some mercy on them if they ever have an accident(god forbid), and help them not to blame themselves too much. I promise you they will let something like this eat at themselves enough, they don't need you telling them "how about having a little presence of mind?"

[bestinhouse]

EsLyon - thanks for your post. You're right, I come off as rude. This whole thing is just so irritating to me. but your quote is part of what I saw that really was ugly about Beijing:

The French epeeist... *looks it up because I forgot the bout* Fabrice Jeannet, after he won a bout in the individual DE's, I can't remember the exact one, started celebrating and walked up to his opponent and screamed in his face whilst the other man held out his hand for a shake. Fabrice continued to walk past him and celebrate, leaving his opponent in disrespect by not shaking his hand, screaming in his face instead, and then walking off.

You didn't see Phelps acting that way in the pool, and he was setting world records. The swimmers celebrated and so forth, but they weren't a-holes to the guys they were competing against. I didn't see all of the Olympics, but I didn't see anyone else on any team taunt or engage in taunting their opponents, being such bad sports, posturing, pandering to the judges, or grandstanding for the crowd. It really puts fencing in a bad light in my opinion. I just don't get why everybody here thinks it's so acceptable in fencing, as if aping the bad manners and poor sportsmanship of wealthy spoiled tennis pros makes fencers better somehow. And yeah, celebrate when you win, I'm fine with that. You deserve it at the Olympics. But do it in an obnoxious way to mock the loser and before you shake his hand? Where's the pride in that?

[bestinhouse]

Foibles: Thanks for this.

I remember watching McEnroe in his early days. The TV camera spotted Clint Eastwood in the audience. They sent a pretty blond with a hand mic his way. "What do you think of McEnroe's behavior?" she asked.

"I've seen this sort of thing in actors that I've directed" Clint replies. "They use screams, antics, arguing, or whatever it is they need to emotionally keep themselves hot, to stay at the height of their game. As a director, you allow it, and understand it, and move on."

It was such an unexpected, well thought out answer I've never forgotten it.

Until that very moment I'd thought (as did most the world) that McEnroe was a spoiled, annoying brat.

You enlightened me.

[bestinhouse]

MyrddinsPrecint”

Thanks for the reply and thanks for implying that I ever fenced in the Olympics… but I never did – I fenced in the NCAA twice, I never finished higher than 14th.

I think you misunderstood me when you said you thought I have some kind of serious desire to see someone punched out. I don’t and I hope I didn't say that. I was trying to say that big mouths can incite others to retaliate, and I was hoping that people would see the analogy that taunting in any sport, left unchecked, can lead to violence.

, took off his mask and mimicked having sex with it while screaming 'yes' ".....

LMAO. I laughed my ass off at this one. Truly. I was laughing, heard a plop, turned around, and there was my ass lying on the floor!

There are rules. But the rules are nonspecific. Unsportsmanlike behavior isn't allowed. Disturbing order on strip isn't allowed. But the definition of either of those things are up to the ref. As it should be, because as soon as you make either of those more specific, you will be eliminating something that's not really that bad-- like screaming in pain when seriously injured-- and more importantly, omit something that is a problem and make the ref unable to penalize for it.

I’m not so sure I agree with this. Yes, ref’s should have discretion to call a foul, but the rules seem completely open to interpretation by the ref. And every ref is a different person, so it's really no rule at all. Perhaps these rules are an anachronistic throwback written in an earlier age, when the sport was more a “white gentleman’s sport” as someone implied in another post, and everybody fenced with the same sense of decorum. But that was then, this is now.

But in many sports, taunting or unsportsmanlike conduct has been defined by the rules-makers, even though it’s sometimes not easy, and even though such rules often require further refining as you see how they're applied over the years. For instance, in football, there are rules about no spiking the ball in front of an opponent, no undue celebrating or displays in the end zone, no bragging, or taunting a beaten or fallen opponent - all have all been defined in football and are enforced as unsportsmanlike conduct, and they've made a difference. In the NCAA, you don't see the behavior anymore, and the players have a pretty clear idea of what they can and can't do. And yeah, football players have big cajones and adrenaline and desire and what-not, and they somehow seem to compete without all the stupid grandstanding you see in fencing... They pump up before, shout and yell, hell yes. But the rules exist to limit what is and what isn't unacceptable behavior on the field. Flags get thrown for being a bad sport all the time. If you had the same loosey-goosey rules in football as you have in fencing, the first week you'd have smackdowns and end zone follies after every touch down, and the next week you'd have straight-laced good boy behavior, and the next week something else, depending on who the ref was. There'd be no uniformity. The rule would be meaningless.

So the fencing rules you quote seem pretty nebulous, and maybe that’s the problem. If “disturbing order on the strip” and “unsportsmanlike behavior” is the full extent of the definition, then maybe the NIE or the FOC shouldn't write weak rules that are subject to any kind of interpretation possible, depending on who might be the judge that day, or how his digestion was that morning.

I’m going to be accused of being “condescending” again, but if somebody makes rules, they will, by definition, “look down” on certain types of behavior. So, just as a NOOB exercise, and by no means saying that I’ve thought this out or think that these rules are the final ones appropriate for today’s fencing world, here goes: Even after being outside of fencing for 30 years, I certainly can conceive of a rough vision of fencing rules which might be drafted to forbid specific things like:

1) no shouting out loud after a touch or the action is clearly over (which would get rid of most of it);
2) No gesticulating to the referee or fans until the bout is over;
3) No shouting at or taunting the other fencer (almost covered by #1);
4) No falling to your knees or undue celebrating, running around, etc after a touch;
5) No fist pumping or gestures of dominance;
6) No removing your mask after a touch, unless to adjust the equipment, and no throwing it to the ground, unless your hair is on fire (j/k);
7) When the bout is over, stand at the starting line, face your opponent, and shake hands. Then you can party.

Penalty for all the above except 7, warning first time, point taken thereafter
If you can't penalize for behavior after the bout is over, let the fine carry over to the next bout.

To define things like “taunting”, “gesticulating to the judges” or “fist pumping” or “gestures of dominance” – just pass around videos of all the known egregious examples of it, get a committee together, let them decide how they want the sport to be, and then post videos on your rules site to let the world know. It could be very black or white, or maybe not so black and white. It all depends on the committee.

OK - WERE WE ALL LISTENING? THE FOREGOING WAS AN EXAMPLE WRITTEN BY A GUY WHO HASN'T FENCED FOR 30 YEARS. It is not meant to be the new law, but it's an example of taking a very weak easily misinterpreted rule, and replacing it with more specific rules. ASSUMING, of course that anybody would like to fix the problem. SO DON'T GET YOUR PANTIES IN A BUNCH TELLING ME HOW WRONG IT IS. Come up with your own ideas if you're so smart.

Getting back to my hypothetical committee, if the committee is full of shouting / screaming guys, then fencing will become even more of a spectacle of screaming, puffery, dick-waving and showing your raspberry-red-bare-ass-monkey-butt to the other fencer in a primal intimidating swoon of testicular ecstasy. Fine with me, but at least know that means the fencing community is headed for the same arena as the guys who smack down their opponents with folding metal chairs.

If the committee wants to go the other way, then by all means write some rules that bring back a tad of dignity to the sport that everyone can live with. Like all rules, you simply draw a line somewhere that seems a reasonable compromise, and let everyone know where and when they’ve crossed it. After it's implemented, see how it works, and come back and review it from time to time to tailor it and make sure it's not having any unwanted effects. Nobody wants to create rules to crush all expression, but a good set of rules in this area could certainly create a balance between enthusiastic competition done in a sportsmanlike manner, and reduce the taunting and sideshow grandstanding that’s going on. Hey, if you need cheerleaders, then make a rule to get some cute girls in tiny skirts. I'm all for that. But dudes in double-knits tooting their own horns between every touch gets pretty old fast.

And finally, MyrddinsPrecint, I think that in any sport, if a guy is lying on the floor screaming in pain, he's not going to lose a point because people thought he broke some other rule about not being a loudmouth. We all know what to do in that situation, so, as an argument, that dog just don’t hunt.

As for omitting something bad so the ref can't penalize, I don't see that happening realistically if new rules were promulgated. If that became a problem, you could revise the rules. You didn't need rules for obnoxious behavior 30 years ago, probably because it was just assumed that polite people didn't act like that, so society caused conformity to the rules by default. Things have changed, so maybe it's time to change the rules. Otherwise you let the the herd lead the cowboys, and not the other way around. You might even decide to make rules to keep some of the flair and raspberry-red-monkey-butt stuff.

So I've made my point. Now you can feel free to ignore everything I've said, bury this blog and go on screaming, yelling and calling each other names, exactly as you were doing in the first place...

[Peach]

I've been following this with the usual interest (it seems to be part of the "social entry" strategy of many new members of this board to make the first post a full-blown screed), but I do have one request. Please try to be succinct. Your points may be interesting, even if they are of the type that gets rehashed over and over again on this board (if a topic keeps coming up, even if the results are frustrating, it is certainly worth discussing) but I would be more inclined to read them if you wrote just a tad less. Thanks in advance.

(yes, I are an English teacher )

[epeelion]

Ok, so here's the problem. Why get rid of all outwards displays of emotion? Seriously, why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp1VikEUvrQ

http://olympicgamesbeijing2008overvi...men-4x100.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwl7_6wHOvg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMNy94u0AAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOgsHUsi-GU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Igc...eature=related

It is part of sport. It excites me, it excites everyone watching, it's what makes it more interesting. Of course we shouldn't be allowed to get up and scream in people's faces, but that is automatically carded by good refs. AND it happens infrequently. Seriously, it does. But telling a fencer he/she can't celebrate at all? Really? Come on.

#7 is already a rule, except with saluting. If you don't shake hands, you are or should be black carded, I believe.

As for the others, I repeat: DO NOT ASSUME THAT EVERYONE ELSE CARES. Honestly, I appreciate that you are responding more cordially, and I am attempting to as well, but this is frustrating on an epic level. Not everyone else finds this to be a problem.

And don't get me started on whether it's automatic or not. Of course it would go away if there were rules against it, but the urge would most definitely be there. People would have to stifle any outbursts of energy they had, which 1.) would detract from any excitement and 2.) would probably actually contribute to someone getting hurt. Ever seen anyone get angry and try to hurt someone during the course of a fencing phrase because they're pissed? You have any idea how much more often that might happen if no energy were released between touches? You also think that you or your opponent won't be able to tell the difference between "WOHOOO!" and "OH F*** DUDE STOP ATTACKING YOUR BLADE IS BROKEN!!"?

What this boils down to is that normal sporting celebration and energy offends your sensibilities and makes you crinkle your nose. That's it. And honestly? Too bad. It's healthy for the sport, and it's healthy for the fencers. Of COURSE not to the point with showboating, tainting, etc. But if you actually went to some NACs, etc., and spent more time watching World Cup fencing, you'd notice that it pretty much stops at yelling between touches and after the bout. No one gets up and taunts people or screams to their face without getting severely reprimanded. But they they yell. And that's ok.

As a side note, your Alma Mater is actually widely considered these days to be the worst offender on this subject. They brought a TRUMPET to last year's NCAAs. My team is also obnoxious sometimes. But you know what? I'm still friends with a lot of the OSU team. I can still go have a beer with them afterwards. And you have no idea how much fun it was, during the final bouts, to have Notre Dame and OSU competing between touches over who could out-cheer the other. That's what the NCAA is all about.

And Peach, sorry for not being more succinct. I'll try to do better next time. ;-)

[Peach]

And Peach, sorry for not being more succinct. I'll try to do better next time. ;-)

'Sokay. I never write succinctly when I don't have enough time, as I warn my department members when I send out memos. Of course, in that case I don't necessarily WANT them to read the whole thing

[jeff]

I never write succinctly when I don't have enough time

Blaise Pascal "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time" - Peach is among the greats! (albeit, he used subjunctive)