Cotton Duck Jacket

[InfernoXV]

Hi Chaps!

I've just gone and found a nearly-new AFS cotton duck quilted-front snap-closure jacket, and have a few questions - if anyone could answer them, I'm be hugely grateful.

1. Is this legal for use in competitions? It's obviously not 800N, but will it fulfil the 350N requirements? (I'm not taking any chances - I intend to wear an 800N plastron beneath it).

2. Since it's cotton duck, can I simply throw it into the washing machine with the usual detergents and fabric softner, or should I omit fabric softner? It appears to be entirely cotton (except for a strange little bit of velcro on the right cuff), can this be bleached once in a while? Unfortunately as it came second-hand quite by random, no instructions came with it.

3. I'm intending to use this with my Italian Grip, with a wrist strap. The cuff's a bit larger than necessary - I wonder if there's any way I can make the weapon arm sleeve and cuff smaller so that there aren't quite so many bulges under my glove.

Why'd I get this curiosity? I like the shiny snap-buttons, I've always liked vintagey-looking stuff, and this happened to be exactly my size, so finding it seemed like providence to me.

Many thanks to whoever can help!

[Purple Fencer]

1. Is this legal for use in competitions? It's obviously not 800N, but will it fulfil the 350N requirements? (I'm not taking any chances - I intend to wear an 800N plastron beneath it).

The newton level is not as much of a concern as the many open places for a blade to get through...especially if you reverse the shoulders while infighting....so I would say no, at least not if you come to MY strip.

In that respect, it's the same as a snap-in bib, which IS illegal.

2. Since it's cotton duck, can I simply throw it into the washing machine with the usual detergents and fabric softner, or should I omit fabric softner? It appears to be entirely cotton (except for a strange little bit of velcro on the right cuff), can this be bleached once in a while? Unfortunately as it came second-hand quite by random, no instructions came with it.

Not sure of the bleaching...sufficient washing may not make it necessarry....just run it in cold water and hang up to dry and you should be fine...especially after you've been sweating in it a lot.

3. I'm intending to use this with my Italian Grip, with a wrist strap. The cuff's a bit larger than necessary - I wonder if there's any way I can make the weapon arm sleeve and cuff smaller so that there aren't quite so many bulges under my glove.

Have the sleeve tailored to your liking.

[SJCFU#2]

1. Is this legal for use in competitions? It's obviously not 800N, but will it fulfil the 350N requirements?

I'm not familiar with the minimum requirements of your national governing body however unless they are a lax as those of the USFA (which has no quantifiable minimum standard - only "robust") then this jacket probably won't be legal for competition simply because it most likely has never been tested and certified for 350N in accordance with EN 13567 (commonly referred to as CEN Level 1) or some equivalent standard.

[catwood1]

I don't know rules of your country, but I can confidently say you should NOT use this jacket.

Like Purple said, if you reverse shoulder, you have an open jacket facing your opponents weapon. You don't want this.

Its a huge safety concern. Even if you a wearing a 800N plastron, a blade wouldn't necessarily hit that plastron if it went through this opening.

[TBean]

Replace the snaps with a zipper - that way the problem is solved. Any tailor can do that and you get the sleeves fixed while you are there.

[Inquartata]

You know, zippers are not much more resistant to a blade than nothing. Velcro even less; certainly nothing like even 350N. Yet they are allowed as closures and do not vitiate the homologation of jackets.

The material rules ( surprise! ) seem ambiguous:

"Safety. It must not be possible for the opponent to be
obstructed or injured by the equipment, nor for the
opponent’s weapon to be caught up in or deflected by the
equipment which, in consequence, must have neither
buckles nor openings in which the opponent’s point may be
caught up — except accidentally — and thus held or
deflected. The jacket and its collar must be completely
buttoned or done up."

Mentioning buttons specifically leaves an "opening" not dissimilar to a loophole IMO.

[InfernoXV]

Thanks to the earlier posters - your replies have been much food for thought. I'm not hugely worried about infighting, since I'm doing épée, and I keep my distance, but I can imagine the scenario you have in mind.

I'm not keen on replacing the snap-buttons, as that would rather rob the jacket of its uniqueness - everyone who's seen it says it looks like I'm fencing in a blanket.

I've also got a vintage sabre jacket with buttons on its way to me. I wonder what material that one's made of.

Inquartata - that rule seems to presume that buttons are legal!

[Purple Fencer]

Inquartata - that rule seems to presume that buttons are legal!

Not really....the rule about the jacket being completely closed is a different matter than the one about leaving no openings.

If you have a zipper closure, but a snap at the collar instead of the almost always too short velcro tab and don't make sure the collar's closed, that violates the rule about the jacket being totally closed up.

If the jacket has a button closure, that violates the rule about not having anhy openings at all.

If you're worried about losing the unique look of the buttons, have a tailor replace the bottom half of the snaps with a zipper closure and leave the tops of the buttons on for decoration...although someone might argue that the buttons may catch the point, which woudl ALSO be illegal.

[Inquartata]

See, this is still not satisfactorily complete.

Sam, take a look at any jacket. What do you see between the top of the closed zipper and the closed collar? A little "opening".

Back wrist? Waist? "Openings".

Fortunately no lawsuit has yet depended on the definitions and expectations of the rulebook, because a lawyer would drive a truck through the "openings" in the rules. An armored truck, waiting to be filled with bags of cash.

What I suspect the rule intended by "opening" was "hole in the material". But it doesn't make it at all clear, so we're stuck with things as they are.

Anyway, Sam's solution is what I was going to suggest. If you want to keep the functionality of the buttons maybe a zipper or strip of velcro just inside the row of buttons, thus:


______________edge of jacket
o o o o o o o o o buttons
///////////////////zipper/velcro

[Purple Fencer]

See, this is still not satisfactorily complete.

Sam, take a look at any jacket. What do you see between the top of the closed zipper and the closed collar? A little "opening".

Whicj I plan to solve on my own line (which I'm prototyping now) by having the zipper terminatemidway between the neck and the shoulder (like my first Santelli....or some AFS jackets)....that way, if the zipper opens a little, it'll expose the underlying jacket material and not the carotid artery!

The top hem from the zipper to the neck would be velcroed.

[oiuyt]

Whicj I plan to solve on my own line (which I'm prototyping now)

Yes, but are you going to have shiny snap-buttons and quilting?

-B

[Purple Fencer]

Yes, but are you going to have shiny snap-buttons and quilting?

-B

Negative....although I might include a low profice snap on the underside of the top hem at the throat, just to make sure it doesn't open up there....not sure about that yet.

[Hauptman]

Thanks to the earlier posters - your replies have been much food for thought. I'm not hugely worried about infighting, since I'm doing épée, and I keep my distance, but I can imagine the scenario you have in mind.

I'm not keen on replacing the snap-buttons, as that would rather rob the jacket of its uniqueness - everyone who's seen it says it looks like I'm fencing in a blanket.

I've also got a vintage sabre jacket with buttons on its way to me. I wonder what material that one's made of.

Inquartata - that rule seems to presume that buttons are legal!

Is there enough overlap of material to have a zipper installed, but recessed and hidden so when closed all you see are the buttons?

I still have my very first Santelli jacket with the shiny silvered buttons. Obviously it is long retired (about 20 years ago), but I kept it for nostalgia.

[zenpharaohs]

I've just gone and found a nearly-new AFS cotton duck quilted-front snap-closure jacket, and have a few questions - if anyone could answer them, I'm be hugely grateful.

The really cool thing about the cotton jackets was how the pressure cuts on the backs would bleed through, leaving bloodstains that nothing would remove.

Everything else about those jackets was not really so cool. Not to mention the heat.

Um sure, bleach the living daylights out of it when you wash it.

I personally would not wear that sort of jacket any more though.

[InfernoXV]

Inquartata - good idea on putting the zipper on under the buttons, there certainly is enough overlap for that.

A chap from AFS replied to say that he could not speak about whether the jacket fulfiled CEN Level 1 350N rating, as they were not submitted for newton testing. I suppose I could still use it here and there for competitions that don't require CEN Level 1 rated clothing.

Thank you to everyone else who contributed!

[DHCJr]

The newton level is not as much of a concern as the many open places for a blade to get through...especially if you reverse the shoulders while infighting....so I would say no, at least not if you come to MY strip.

In that respect, it's the same as a snap-in bib, which IS illegal.

Sam, I agree about the bib. The rule is in the Apendix.

Where is the rule about the uniform? If you are going to referee like that, you better have a rule to make that decision.

There is a reason why snaps are illegal on a mask and not considered a problem on a jacket. Where they are located! The snaps on the bib are on the front!

Note: There is an even bigger hole in the front, then the ones between the snaps. The front leg goes through it.

Now whether it is legal, it would be in the U.S. You are in Singapore, I am afraid I don't know what the requirements are there.

This is a suggestion I make to all fencers. Get a rule book and read and understand it!