Coaches competing against their students?

[milstdfarm]

How do you handle potentially competing against one of your students at a tournament?

I want to start competing again but I don't want the conflict of interest I see in fencing a current student. I'm 49 so I'm of little concern to serious fencers, I just want to have some fun.

I'm considering only fencing in tourny's in other cities where I know my students won't enter.

I look forward to reading things you've done to avoid this problem.

[catwood1]

I know a few coaches who still compete. Some are essentially fencers who also do a little coaching. Maybe Joe Points List gives a few lessons in his spare time, but still competes in NACs.

On the other side, there are full time coaches who everyone once in a while enter a tournament for the hell of it.

Either way, I'd say the predominant mindset is that when they are at the club, with the coaching jacket on, they are a coach. When they are on the other side of the strip from you in a competition, they are just another opponent. Everything in the middle, is up to you.

Thats what I see the most from other coaches.

If it were me, I feel like I am a coach more than a fencer at this point, so I would put my coaching first, including in a tournament. For example, if I fenced my student in the round of 8, I would do everything possible to win the bout, and obviously wouldn't be giving him advice during the bout. After the bout, regardless of win or loss, I would be giving advice to my student and later work with him in lessons to fix the actions you were able to score against him with. During the event, when he was fencing other fencers, I would probably strip coach him, the same as I would any other teammate.

I hope this helps.

[Allen Evans]

What happens when:

• You enter a tournament, face your student, and beat them with the move they haven't been able to master in lesson, yet?
• You enter a tournament, face your student, and they beat you (easily) with a move you've been trying to talk them out of because it only works against a certain class of fencer (and you're that class)?
• You enter a tournament and defeat one of your young students, denying them their first rating, and the student's parents are furious with you.
• Your student beats you handily at a local event, and declares publicly that he or she is moving to another club because if they can beat you, you don't know enought to teach them?
• You lose to a student in a tournament, giving them their first rating, and a referee/competitor/parent accuses you of throwing the bout?

I stopped fencing about the time I started coaching seriously, but I've seen each one of these scenarios happen with other coaches. If you got a plan for these sorts of situations, that's great. Otherwise I would fence out of state. Or in another country.

Allen Evans

[Wafath]

I run into my students all the time in competitions. (in one recent competition I had to go through three of my students in a row in DEs. It happens.)

Part of it is expectation management. I feel that my students understand the difference between me as a coach, and me as a competitor. I don't exactly coddle my students so none of them expect me to do anything but try to win if we face each other.

To answer Allen's situations:

1) I continue to use the skill to win the bout, and redouble my efforts in the next lesson. Maybe seeing its effectiveness will focus the attention of the student.

2) That is a tougher one. Spend more time explaining strategy, and put the move in context? (here the difference between a beginner student and an advanced student is important. The beginner shouldn't be upset by loosing to the coach, and the advanced student should take to heart the lesson in strategy.)

3) Explain the rules and the obligations of an athlete. Explain that ratings don't matter. Explain that they will get a rating in due course when they are ready to. Also explain that as a college student, their child should be picking and fighting his/her own battles now.

4) Shrug my shoulders, shake their hand and wish them luck. If they come back (for whatever reason), include tact in their next lesson.

5) Share it with my other students; they would find the very idea extremely amusing.

W

[jBirch]

Very tough call...

I find that, because I'm in a relatively small town, I can't get the coaching insights I need without fencing in the occasional tournament. And my students usually DO move on to other clubs once they can beat me, which I'm ok with. In fact, I encourage them to do that.

I have beaten them in tournaments with techniques that they are weak in. They know it and I know it and when we get back to the club, it's often an abject lesson example that helps a bit with understanding.

We have age classifications so I'll never end up fencing a young student at the impressionable stage. I do end up fencing some of my older students, but then we can also go out for beer afterwards and tease each other about it.

I always have mixed feelings about losing to my students (and, oddly, it's happening more often lately). On the one hand, I'm proud of them, on the other, well, I hate losing. Sometimes I get crushed by a manouvre that I'm particularly weak against. Often, there's another fencer who's more adept at dealing with that technique and schools my fencer out of the "if it works, don't change it" mindset.

But the biggest thing I find is that I'm not good enough to have more then a handful of highly motivated competitive students and so I need to set an example to the others by going to tournaments and having fun. I have pulled out of a competition because I have a pressing coaching requirement on another piste.

That's why the club pays for any tournaments that I fancy entering since it's not fair for me to pay for a class and then have to give it up for coaching. And it's easy for me to know where my priorities for the tournament are: if I paid for it, I can play. If the club pays for it, I'm there to coach.

But I also find myself competing less and less often, much to my chagrin.

James.

[Fencergrl]

I fenced my coach in most tournaments I went to because she was a little younger than me. I could only escape her when I went into Vet events (which were few and far between).

As an adult, we were student-coach, friends and opponents. The line would tend to get blurred for her more than I. During competition, I would notice she would wake up after I started hitting her when she fell into "lesson mode". It always happened, and she always had to focus back on winning. I found I had an slight advantage because I could throw her in lesson mode by working familiar techniques we worked on in drills until she woke up.

Like James said, the gender and age categories make it less likely that you will come across one of your students in a competition. I have about 100 students, there's only one who I might end up competing against. My coach had even more students as she coached at two clubs. I think there was 2 she fenced.

[campb1pr]

I think the answer lies like most here - it depends.

For me the line comes somewhere around how much of your income depends on your coaching, and how much your students depend on you for any chance to fence and compete.

I think all of Allen's questions are valid, and concerning. They are all based in ethical decisions. And in managing expectations, as Wafath said.

Do you coach young competitors who are just starting out in the sport? If so, egos are probably much more fragile, and also those students may not be able to comprehend the difference between coach as coach and coach as competitor as well as an older student.

Are you a college club coach who just drops by the salle once or twice a week and tries to squeeze in some private lessons to help out the students? I know personally in this case that with some preliminary disclaimer work, you should be able to compete against your students with little to no problem.

Do you coach a little on the side to make some extra bucks, and mostly deal with students your own age and experience level? If so, that has its own issues.


I think Allen is right, you need to know the answers to each of his situations, and wafath is also right - manage their expectations of who you are.

The less you rely on their $$ and the less they rely on your coaching to learn the sport - the easier it is to compete against them, I think.

[MdA]

My transition from fencer to coach happened over about 15 years. My last nationals was 95. For many of the reasons above.....I found that as I coached more....I fenced less. My fencers are national level competitors. They rely on me heavily. Now, when I am at competitions, I am in "coaching mode"

I use all competitions...including local competitions...to work on my communications and support techniques...to prepare both myself and my fencers...for the national level...building trust and reliance for critical bouts.

[milstdfarm]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Allen, you brought up some ethical situations that I hadn't thought of, particularly about being accused of throwing a bout. Certainly don't want that, but couldn't the same accusation be made about club members facing each other?

My students are young, 15-18. I don't want to face them in competition. I want them to know that I'm there to help them in every way, not to worry that I might be holding something back so I can beat them at a tourny. That's why I may be forced to only fence in other cities. I did see someone said they dropped out in the middle of a tourny when a student needed help. I don't like the idea of quitting in the middle of a tourny. But I think I would if I had to, to avoid the conflict of interest.

What I'm surprised about is the sentiment that if a student can beat a coach, the student might move on to another coach. That doesn't make any sense to me. I told my students, they have to be able to beat me if they want to have any chance of success in a tourny. I'm 49, old and slow. Beating me is their first goal. What I offer as a coach is teaching new skills and techniques. A coach doesn't have to be able to win every bout to know how to teach. Please tell me where I'm wrong.

[Tyldak]

Generally speaking, there should not be anything wrong with coaches competing in tournaments where they could potentially wind up against their students. That said, it can be problematic (see Allen's post), so if you are going to coach, you may want to watch/modify your coaching style/choices to reflect that.

IMHO, a good coach should be able to check his ego when teaching fencers, especially young, ambitious ones. A good coach should be able to say, "My job is to make you much, much better than me." and mean it. A good coach should be able to take pride when a young student can honestly beat him, whether it's in practice or a competition.

How many high school basketball, football, or soccer coaches out there can out-play their players? While fencing does allow for a larger measure of skill & cunning beating out youth & energy than those sports, the analogy holds water. If you set yourself up as some great expert, in both your competitive skills and your coaching skills, you set up your students to walk on you when they can beat you. If you start from day one letting them know that you are not the Great Expert, and that your job is just to help them become adaptive, competitive machines capable of figuring out and beating any opponent under any circumstances, they will respect you whether they can beat you or not.

What's tougher is the other situations Allen listed... What happens when you beat your fencer who really wanted/needed that classification? What happens when you lose to him/her and people say you let them have it? If you run a club that emphasizes integrity and good sportsmanship no matter what, and people know you do (i.e. you really walk the walk) then I think those questions will be far few and in-between, and the only people asking them will be people who don't know you at all, or who are especially bitter. In the former case, a few inquiries to the community at large will clear it up, in the latter case, everyone will consider the source of the questions/accusations with a large grain of salt.

[swordsen]

My students all know that they have a chance of meeting me in a tournament. The newer ones worry about it, the more advanced ones look forward to it. When we meet I try my best to beat them. Then afterwords we sit down and talk about what they did, and what I did. IF nothing else, I will teach my students how to beat me eventually. And while I am not the best fencer running out there, if they can beat me they can beat a lot of other folks too.

[Tomas N]

I find it difficult to compete against my students, not because of any ethical issues or even any of the very good points Allen brings up, but because the coaching hat and the competitor hat don't fit on the same head. If I'm at a tournament where my students are fencing, I worry about them and want to check up and make sure they are fencing to the best of their abilities. That interferes, for me, with what I have discovered is a very self-centered attitude that I need in order to fence my best.

I've seen other coaches who seem to have no problems coaching and competing. In Northern Ohio, where I fence quite a bit, many (most? almost all?) of the coaches also compete.

Tomas

[mesulater]

I had a bout in a C and under foil tournament back in August with one of my coaches. We both made it to the round of 16, and we had to fence for the round of 8 where I could have gotten my E08. I lost the bout 15-6. I had been seated 7th after pools and he was 10th.

I honestly have no idea what was going through my coaches mind when he knew he had to fence me. But what was going through my mind was thinking back to every bout and lesson he had taught me through the 5 years he has been teaching me. I had beaten this coach a few times in our monthly club tournaments, but never actually had a chance to fence him in a USFA tournament. My coach knew my strenghts and weaknesses, and I knew where my coaches strengths were and also knew a few of his weaknesses.

What my coach taught a while back though was that even when you arent quite sure how you will do against a compeitor on the strip, you always fence your hardest. Yea I lost that day and couldnt get my E, but I have alot of respect in my coach and I personally would have enjoyed that E much more had I been able to beat him for it just because it would have shown how much I have progressed through working with him. I would never leave my club or stop talking to my coach because of the loss just because I respect him a whole lot.

After losing to him, I know things I need to work on. My parents laughed at me when I told them that I lost to my coach. And besides now I have something to bug him about!

[Allen Evans]

Look, almost all of you are missing the point. The question isn't whether a coach is a better fencer than the student, or vica versa. The central question is one of what the role of the coach is in the student's fencing development and in his or her life. Especially for young students, the role of the coach is one of mentoring and teaching, not one of adversity and direct conflict.

Some of you claim not to be "real" coaches. Fine. You're the helpful "teammate" at club that gives pointers and advice; if you meet in competition, may the best fencer win. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a stretch of the word to call a person in that role a "coach".

If you are a coach, your job is to support your fencers in a trusting environment. That's very difficult to do if, every weekend, you're trying to eliminate them from a tournament.

Other posters will point out exceptions to this...such as with Peach, who seems to have a great relationship with her coach. But one of the reasons her rep is so high on this board is that Peach's maturity and common sense is one of her defining characterists....not always true with, say a 14-year-old boy. Peach also doesn't anticipate encountering her coach in a competition that will really matter to her (otherwise, we might see some of that composure flake a little bit! ). I will also agree that there are probably other coach/student relationships out there that can handle a some healthy competition.

But fencing against your students is a very delicate situation, and if a coach is going to do that, I would definately suggest taking a moment to pause and consider some "worse case" scenarios before doing so, and even discuss it with your students before fencing in the same events as they do.

Allen Evans

[Allen Evans]

What I'm surprised about is the sentiment that if a student can beat a coach, the student might move on to another coach. That doesn't make any sense to me. I told my students, they have to be able to beat me if they want to have any chance of success in a tourny. I'm 49, old and slow. Beating me is their first goal. What I offer as a coach is teaching new skills and techniques. A coach doesn't have to be able to win every bout to know how to teach. Please tell me where I'm wrong.

Your confusion stems from expecting young males to act with a maturity and long term view that they don't often have. Some adults don't even understand this concept of the coach as a teacher rather than a performer (at least, in fencing).

Allen Evans

[jBirch]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Allen Evans again.

For both of your posts.

James.

[swordsen]

If you are a coach, your job is to support your fencers in a trusting environment. That's very difficult to do if, every weekend, you're trying to eliminate them from a tournament.


Allen Evans

This is a statement I don't agree with. It is not at all difficult if you have a good relationship otherwise with the students. That bout in a tournament provides one of the best teaching opportunities you can get. After the bout discuss and analyze it. Almost never in practice with the student be fencing with the intensity and focus that they will in the tournament and it is easy to use that when you can sit down and say. "Look, on that third touch when I hit you there you were doing X with your hand again and opening the target.." They see it much more clearly that way.

It works for me. Your mileage may vary.

[MdA]

..... Almost never in practice with the student be fencing with the intensity and focus that they will in the tournament and it is easy to use that when you can sit down and say. "Look, on that third touch when I hit you there you were doing X with your hand again and opening the target.." They see it much more clearly that way.

It works for me. Your mileage may vary.

swordsen, you are just kidding yourself...as a coach ...and giving yourself a big pat on the back...at the expense of your fellow fencers. You are living in the world between competitor and coach.

[thekoby]

I coach, but I also fence, and from time to time I have to face a student on the strip. Yes, I can beat them and yes there are times where they beat me (or place higher because they are in a different bracket). I agree with Allen that most people responded to the OP with observations on how a coach should be a better fencer than his or her student, but they are just observing technical skills. When I beat a student on the strip, I do not gloat about it and if it brought up in converstaion later on I attempt to turn the topic into a direction about how my student did.

I feel that a tournament is a tournament, and if I face against a student, then I fence to the best of my abilities and hope they do the same. This is in contrast to Allen's comment that it's hard to be a coach when you view your student as the next step to a big win, and I will admit that's because I would fall into the "club member who teaches" category rather than "coach".

It is difficult because you can't strip coach them, you can't offer a good observation to their fencing afterwards, and you can't show them that moral support they need in order to keep pushing through to the end. I've considered going to different tournaments so that I can continue to compete but not have to fance against one of my students.

It's also difficult when you are fencing a student at practice and they beat you, then face you in a tournament expecting the same situation and you beat them easily. It is discouraging to the student as they were living the hype of beating you once only to be pushed back down.

That bout in a tournament provides one of the best teaching opportunities you can get. After the bout discuss and analyze it. Almost never in practice with the student be fencing with the intensity and focus that they will in the tournament

Easy solution to this: once you are done with your lesson, fencing your student like you would fence them in a tournament. This should force them to increase their concentration and determination. You will be able to see the same things you will see at a tournament and have that "sit down" moment later on, but not have the ethical conflict.

...What happens when you beat your fencer who really wanted/needed that classification? What happens when you lose to him/her and people say you let them have it?....

I can understand that a fencer needs a certain rating to get into certain NACs, but as far as them wanting it, it is up to them to earn it, and as a coach, you just show them the way (IMHO). Case in point, at the recent Purdue open, I was seated 10th at the start of DEs and I really wanted to be in the round of 8, so I stepped it up and beat out the 7th-ranked fencer (who was rated a C08). Can I beat a C on a regular basis, probably not, but I really wanted that 7th place seating.

swordsen, you are just kidding yourself...as a coach ...and giving yourself a big pat on the back...at the expense of your fellow fencers. You are living in the world between competitor and coach.

*raises hand* I fall in that area as well and am really looking forward to learning as much as I can from the other coaches on this site to increase my level of being a good coach.

[MdA]

....
I use all competitions...including local competitions...to work on my communications and support techniques...to prepare both myself and my fencers...for the national level...building trust and reliance for critical bouts.

Some of you are missing my point. You can't build trust and reliance if you are the "critical bout".

I have said this before in my other posts. Most of us coach the way we were coached. If you were brought up by someone like Allen’s “helpful teammate” or “Crazy Aunt”…you will probably coach that way. If you have never experienced a training environment where the coach is totally devoted to your development as a fencer….you might like to try it.