Coaches competing against their students?

[DangerMouse]

Some of us also coach because there is no one else to do it. The university clube where I coach would not exist if I left because there would be no instruction. I have regularly had to fence my students in competition. Those who I beat, the difference in ability level is so great that this is not the "critical bout." Those who have beat me are mature enough that it really does not affect our relationship. Even if they execute better, I have 3x the experience and have worked with more than a dozen high level coaches so there is always something new to show them. Similarly, when my execution is off, I trust them to help me fix it or to strip coach me at tournaments. It is possible to have trust and reliance if the atmosphere promotes equality. Of course, I am not a professional coach and my income does not depend on the perception that I know more than my students. I run my academic classes in a similar fashion and find it works well.

[MdA]

Some of us also coach because there is no one else to do it. The university club where I coach would not exist if I left because there would be no instruction. I have regularly had to fence my students in competition. ….

I coach, but I also fence, and from time to time I have to face a student on the strip….
*raises hand* I fall in that area as well and am really looking forward to learning as much as I can from the other coaches on this site to increase my level of being a good coach.

I understand. My first coaching job was at a Community College in Cheyenne, Wyoming. As I said in one of my previous posts, it took me 15 years to transition to a full-time coach. There were a couple minor comebacks in there…but nothing as rewarding as my initial competitive experience thru high school-cadet-juniors-college varsity fencing.

I know that there are many people reading this thread that are probably in various stages of the transition from fencer to coach. I am trying to provide helpful info. I don’t want to put down volunteer or part-time coaches. You coaches are the “bread and butter of American fencing”. As you say..if not for you there would be no fencing in many parts of the USA...and the world, for that matter.

For me and from my own experience…I began to become more effective as a coach (and less effective as a fencer) as I began to devote myself more seriously to the study of coaching....not just fencing. Many of you are already on that path...like it or not. I don't think you would be reading this forum if you weren't.

For some of you this may begin to include coaching education and training like this…. Gia Kvaratskhelia Foil Coaching Clinic in San Antonio – April 3-5, 2009

I eventually found myself using funds for coaching education…or travel to support my fencers… that I might have used for my own competitions. This is the point where you may have to commit yourself to full-time coaching..or the serious study of coaching. Fencing your students, might not fit into this process. Of course, it helps if you can get paid for coaching.

[stritti]

Well I am still fencing against my students and it runns not that bad , changing from Master to Fencer is in the trainings now no more problem and my team likes to have me in the team also , as long as I qualify myselfe for the nationals I go on and from next year I can fence also in the european champs for veterans so ...I go on like I do it for many years now :-)

[griffindm]

Some of you are missing my point. You can't build trust and reliance if you are the "critical bout".

I totally agree with this. I came out of retirement briefly last season, fencing in three tournaments for the first time since '95. In the first meet, a local "C" and under, I had to face one of my students in the semi DE bout. I beat him, and afterwards I realized that , while I had to accept that that could happen when I entered the tournament, it was not necessarily a good thing. No particular long-term harm was done in this case, but I feel it would have been a much worse situation if it was at an out-of-town NAC, where the parents of that student had spent a good bit of money to have their child eliminated by his own coach.

I have since determined to be circumspect in choosing my tournaments to reduce the possibility of such an event.

Dave G.

[Fechter1]

but I feel it would have been a much worse situation if it was at an out-of-town NAC, where the parents of that student had spent a good bit of money to have their child eliminated by his own coach.

I have since determined to be circumspect in choosing my tournaments to reduce the possibility of such an event.

Dave G.

So a student of your fencing in a big tournament (NAC, Nationals) should preclude a coach from entering, only to mitigate the remote possibility of encountering each other in an elimination situation somewhere in the tournament? Not sure I could agree to that... (Please correct me if I read that wrong.)
That would mean that your students have a de facto veto over which tournaments you're allowed to enter. For coaches who are still competitive, that might be a rather big deal...

(Besides, if you're in an elimination situation in those big tournaments, it means that either you've made it to the knockout stages or you're in the same pool, which really should not happen. Either way, both of you will have some fencing under their belt for the day)

For me the biggest problem was always turning off my coaching reflexes (such as opening up nice targets, giving good cues as to what actions would be appropriate)... Once we all figured out how to turn off 'lesson-mode', that problem pretty much disappeared.

Granted, newer fencers may have issues sorting this out, but in my book it mainly means that either the student wasn't ready for competition yet or is in the process of 'gaining his competition legs'.


Short version: in my limited coaching career, I have not noticed any significant problems for either party when fencing any of my students in competitions.

[jBirch]

For coaches who are still competitive...

Unfortunately, the existence of such a creature is precisely the problem we're debating.

James.

[Fechter1]

Unfortunately, the existence of such a creature is precisely the problem we're debating.

James.

I was trying to differentiate between levels of competitiveness. The coach who just enters a tournament or two every now and then versus the more results-oriented fencer who just happens to coach on the side.

[zenpharaohs]

Some of us also coach because there is no one else to do it. The university clube where I coach would not exist if I left because there would be no instruction. I have regularly had to fence my students in competition.

Yeah I was in this situation for a while. A local University club needed a coach. Our tournaments were small enough that everyone had to enter just to keep from losing money. It really wasn't a huge problem because our successful tournaments were the ones where we got students from a somewhat nearby very high level university program to come and beat our brains in. So in fact my "students" were rooting for me (or anyone else) to score on those guys, which we sometimes did.

[griffindm]

So a student of your fencing in a big tournament (NAC, Nationals) should preclude a coach from entering, only to mitigate the remote possibility of encountering each other in an elimination situation somewhere in the tournament? Not sure I could agree to that... (Please correct me if I read that wrong.)
That would mean that your students have a de facto veto over which tournaments you're allowed to enter. For coaches who are still competitive

Therein lies the rub. I am NOT competitive. As I said these were my first tourneys in over 12 YEARS. I am very much of the "been there, done that" attitude with general competitive fencing. I only competed at all this year for a little fun and because my ratings had long since expired and I was curious whether I still had it or not.

My bottom line: I agree with MdA and Allen that it is a difficult situation to be the primary coach for people for whom competition is important, and then to be the critical bout for them in a major event. The big tourneys are not my thing these days (as I could only do Div I, IA, or Vet), so it is not a problem for ME. I could see it being a problem for someone that acts as a primary coach for competitive fencers, and still meets them often in larger events.

Again: it's the issue of whether you can be an honest broker of provided unqualified support for your students, or whether you have to "turn it off" or even "turn them off" by being their last bout in DE's.

YMMV.

Dave G.

[darius]

I'd like to hope that most of my students are mature enough to deal. At this point in my career, I can still be decently useful as a training partner in practice, and a not-entirely-simple draw in local competitions -- why not use that?

I've had bouts get extremely competitive -- I've eliminated one of the better NWFC girls in the last two competitions we've had, but in my opinion, you CAN build that trust if you go about it the right way. If you fence with them, you're building the ability to empathize -- I KNOW what's going through your head, because I've been there. I know what it's like to be an emotional fencer, because I am one. I KNOW that footwork set kills your legs; I just did it with you. Obviously, that sort of leadership by example has limits (can you do it as well when you're 50, or when you have 5 more high-level lessons to give that evening?), but I don't find playing the role of competitor has been a barrier to trust.

As far as NACs are concerned; I stopped entering Div 1s when I'd unhook from the strip and immediately sprint over to a student's strip to coach. Why spend the money if my heart (and my point control) wasn't in it?

darius

[MdA]

As far as NACs are concerned; I stopped entering Div 1s when I'd unhook from the strip and immediately sprint over to a student's strip to coach. Why spend the money if my heart (and my point control) wasn't in it?

darius

I stopped competing in the same tournaments when the following started to happen.....I rush over to the strip after my bout, my student is sitting there dejected after losing a bout....unable to even tell me what happened ....or convinced that the ref had blown several calls.

As you study sports psychology, you learn that even high level athletes have trouble analyzing defeat....all this after lots of serious work with the student at practice...and I am unable to help...so I have to go ask someone else...usually a parent...who looks at me like...."you shoulda been here"...especially if I am charging for lessons.

Its even worse with mulitple students in the same competition....or trying to fence in a competition your hosting....it just doesn't work....the competition is probably not being run very well and won't attract more customers next time. I would be hooking up for my next bout watching a bout across the room.

It is hard to tell the fencer after a bad bout..." oh well kid, that is the way fencing goes"....and then go hook up and fence your next bout. Especially, if you have invested a lot of time in practice with the student.

But I think Darius makes the best point....when you realize you're wasting your money...and the students money...."It's the economy stupid"....you can make your decision.

This is also about moving from the point where you are "totally into" your own fencing, and getting "totally into" everybody elses fencing.

[MdA]

The argument above only applies if you are trying to improve performance for your dollars. This is particularly true in my family with four fencers…and I am the coach. See the following thread:
I'm a fencer, I'm a parent of a fencer
You may choose another path, if you and your students are just into fencing for fun and education. See the following thread:
"Useless" techniques
In that case, have fun and let them figure it out for themselves….it’ll be a great learning experience for both you and your fencers…

[AaronK]

A (new) coach may consider that if they are still competitive, and likely to be entering the same level tournaments that their students are competing in- the coach should consider teaching a different weapon then their own (competitive weapon).

And in reality, what are we talking about here? Realistically, those of us who are professional coaches (consider it our profession rather than hobby) who may still have a competitive fencing career are probably not likely to have much overlap with our competitive students- even if we are hanging in there. If we where talking elite Cadet/Juniors, I doubt that there are many professional coaches able to fence in those categories. We really should be talking about kids here, because what it seems like this thread is addressing is murky boundaries between coach and athlete. I don't think the case would be quite the same if we where only talking about Vet. fencers or adult fencers competing for recreation (rather than making a national team or qualifying for SN, etc.).