10-07-2008, 04:35 PM
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#22 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,683
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Originally Posted by Cookeit  When will this affect the USFA?
Say I need a new mask.. should I consider the X-Change as the only option, so I don't have to retrofit/buy 2 masks? | Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon Scaggs The implementation date of this change for USFA has not yet been determined. The USFA will wait and see how this develops before implementing it here for our domestic events. |
Personally, I'm hoping the USFA can wait it out long enough for the FIE to come to its senses and reverse the decision, kinda like we did with the black card for non-combativity.
Will it actually work out that way? Probably not. 
Last edited by peet; 10-07-2008 at 04:38 PM.
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10-07-2008, 04:58 PM
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#23 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MD
Posts: 1,093
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Originally Posted by peet Personally, I'm hoping the USFA can wait it out long enough for the FIE to come to its senses and reverse the decision, kinda like we did with the black card for non-combativity.
Will it actually work out that way? Probably not. | At least the USFA isn't jumping on the bandwagon the same way they did a few years ago when the FIE started their trial with the new timings. Once a sufficient number of the NGB's had decided that they absolutely had to switch, lest their international fencers find themselves at a disadvantage, it was pretty much a given that the the new timings (which were still supposed to be experimental) would become permanent no matter what.
By the time the first major event was run under the new timings, bringing to light many of those flaws, it was already too late to go back. | |
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10-07-2008, 06:36 PM
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#24 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 142
| The USFA normally would track all rules changes with the FIE. In this case, since there was no equipment actually available we were nervous about mandating the change until it was clear that it was actually going to happen. | |
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10-07-2008, 10:37 PM
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#25 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 245
| If the USFA allows manufacturers to offer a cheap retro-fit, this doesn't seem much for most of us to worry about. Plus it's overdue -- the whole torso is target in principle, and now it will be in reality. | |
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10-08-2008, 12:11 AM
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#26 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 364
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Originally Posted by ysbadadden If the USFA allows manufacturers to offer a cheap retro-fit, this doesn't seem much for most of us to worry about. Plus it's overdue -- the whole torso is target in principle, and now it will be in reality. | So you mean that for all the years we have had bibs on foil masks, the event has suffered as a result? Now it's really going to be great, right? So you also mean that you would now like a foil tip speeding toward your throat because now "the whole torso is target?" I hope you're kidding. | |
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10-09-2008, 03:15 AM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 245
| You have understood perfectly. Foil has suffered from an excess of off-targets resulting from thrusts that were the right height and direction, but hit a part of the lamé that was covered by the bib. As you also understand, the bib is designed to protect the throat, which is not target. A thrust aimed at the throat is poorly aimed. A thrust aimed at a point just below the collarbone on the weapon-hand side is correctly aimed, but has a good chance of hitting the bib. Thus the weapon suffers.
I suspect that the bib was target in the days of visual judging, before the electric weapon was introduced, but I may be wrong about that. | |
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10-09-2008, 07:42 AM
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#28 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London
Posts: 353
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Originally Posted by ysbadadden I suspect that the bib was target in the days of visual judging, before the electric weapon was introduced, but I may be wrong about that. | It was plus bibs now cover much more valid target. Modern masks have much bigger bibs.
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Be Quick But Don't Hurry. | |
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10-09-2008, 01:35 PM
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#29 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,683
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The problem with foil is not bib hits.
The problem with foil is not bib hits.
The problem with foil is not bib hits.
The problem with foil is not bib hits.
Really, the problem with foil is not bib hits. | |
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10-09-2008, 01:51 PM
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#30 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 364
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Originally Posted by ysbadadden You have understood perfectly. Foil has suffered from an excess of off-targets resulting from thrusts that were the right height and direction, but hit a part of the lamé that was covered by the bib. As you also understand, the bib is designed to protect the throat, which is not target. A thrust aimed at the throat is poorly aimed. A thrust aimed at a point just below the collarbone on the weapon-hand side is correctly aimed, but has a good chance of hitting the bib. Thus the weapon suffers.
I suspect that the bib was target in the days of visual judging, before the electric weapon was introduced, but I may be wrong about that. | This is obviously a bad, dangerous and expensive decision by the FIE. It would have been easier to make the regular bibs a bit smaller, to uncover valid chest target, rather than open up an electrified bib as valid target. As I said, people may now aim for the bib, increasing the risk of hits to the neck. | |
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10-09-2008, 02:14 PM
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#31 | | Scrub
Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Miami
Posts: 2,578
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Originally Posted by Soberin This is obviously a bad, dangerous and expensive decision by the FIE. It would have been easier to make the regular bibs a bit smaller, to uncover valid chest target, rather than open up an electrified bib as valid target. As I said, people may now aim for the bib, increasing the risk of hits to the neck. | The problem here (among others) is the all-too-predictable resulting screams about the safety risks associated with reducing the size of bibs.
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"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
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"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand."
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10-09-2008, 02:55 PM
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#32 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 878
| Quote:
Originally Posted by peet .The problem with foil is not bib hits.
The problem with foil is not bib hits.
The problem with foil is not bib hits.
The problem with foil is not bib hits.
Really, the problem with foil is not bib hits. | The problem with foil is it's foil. *Ducks, squirms, runs away*  | |
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10-09-2008, 03:02 PM
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#33 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,322
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Originally Posted by tchwojko *Ducks, squirms, runs away* : | Ah so you're a foil fencer then  | |
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10-09-2008, 03:39 PM
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#34 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 878
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Originally Posted by seak Ah so you're a foil fencer then | Nope, but I know to irritate them. 
Better response: The problem with foil is that it's not epee...yet. | |
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10-09-2008, 03:57 PM
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#35 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,878
| I think 'bib' is a silly word. | |
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10-09-2008, 04:12 PM
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#36 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: USA
Posts: 288
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Soberin This is obviously a bad, dangerous and expensive decision by the FIE. It would have been easier to make the regular bibs a bit smaller, to uncover valid chest target, rather than open up an electrified bib as valid target. As I said, people may now aim for the bib, increasing the risk of hits to the neck. | --> Making the bib smaller would increase the likelihood of a direct hit to the throat in between the mask and jacket, and is therefore more dangerous. Besides, the bib on FIE masks is actually rated at 1600N. this is double the requirement for any other cloth part of the uniform.
--> People may aim for the bib in epee (stiffer than a foil!) and saber and I haven’t ever heard of a neck injury related to a bib hit.
--> I highly doubt the bib will become preferred target (again see epee or saber)
--> Buying a new mask with a smaller bib is more expensive than installing a conductive sleeve.
--> For the purist, as was previously mentioned, the bib was never intended to be an off target hit. It was omitted when foil was electrified. While change may have the side effect of reducing the effectiveness of the "poppin' and lockin'" defense it can be primarily considered to be "fix" of one of the original problems caused by the modern scoring system.
Then again, I see no reason that Foil couldn't just use a saber mask.
...or I suppose we could get jackets like these with no bib at all.
Last edited by Prometheus; 10-09-2008 at 04:18 PM.
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10-09-2008, 04:16 PM
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#37 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,878
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Originally Posted by Prometheus the "poppin' and lockin'" defense | This needs more detail. | |
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10-09-2008, 05:34 PM
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#38 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,683
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Originally Posted by Prometheus the "poppin' and lockin'" defense | Quote:
Originally Posted by telkanuru This needs more detail. |
I had no idea that was a fencing technique. | |
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10-09-2008, 07:41 PM
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#39 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Japan
Posts: 1,040
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Originally Posted by telkanuru I think 'bib' is a silly word. | Bib is what you get at Red Lobster. It should be called "Tracheal Blocking Mechanism (TBM) or something that sounds like Iron Man would have.
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10-09-2008, 09:05 PM
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#40 | | Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 99
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus -->
--> People may aim for the bib in epee (stiffer than a foil!) and saber and I haven’t ever heard of a neck injury related to a bib hit.
.... | I've been hit in the neck in saber. I attacked, and my opponent counterattacked hard with her point. Nothing permanent, but I was on the ground for a while. Did get a light, though.
Foil actions have to penetrate; epee and sabre have closer targets. So the occasional bib shots in sabre and epee become regular, methodical attacks (and counterattacks) to the throat in foil. Bibs would become choice targets. Some coaches would drill actions to the throat. That just has to end badly. | |
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