Backward lunge in epee...Useless?

[Phrogger]

The discussion on the epee en garde position was so helpful I'm throwing another one to the forum. (The poll is just for fun!)

I'm using the book "Foil, Saber, and Epee Fencing" to design an epee syllabus for our club. The usefulness of the backwards lunge is what I'm trying to determine. It only merits a passing mention in the book as "a move peculiar to epee." In my copy of "The Complete Guide to Fencing," the closest thing I can find is the "Esquive with withdrawing of the target area." I wouldn't even bother with it except that there's one skilled fencer at our club that insists it's a core move and he uses it all the time. Should this move be taught with ducking/displacement or is it more of a basic footwork move along with the jump-lunge? Is it useful at all? Opinions and discussion appreciated.

[epeelion]

The backwards lunge, to me, makes absolutely no sense in any situation. You can start the back foot back as you counterattack, but why would you do an actual backwards lunge?!

[noodle]

i have used it with success to score toe touches, which sounds totally bizarre but its really situational, based on the fencer i'm fencing.

i would possibly mention it in passing, and weave it into some sort of drill to demonstrate the fact that the concept exists, but in no way focus on it anywhere near as much as more useful things.

[foibles]

Some folk duck and extend by dropping into a baseball catcher's pose. Usually this is a counterattack with the hope that the incoming attack will pass harmlessly over ones head while you hit them as they pass. The problem with ducking this way is that you can only go straight back up.

The backwards lunge allows the same duck/ extend, but you can recover fwd or backward giving you a bit more option.

Still, I see it as a novelty hit and agree with Mr. Noodle to its limited usefulness.

[DenverFencing]

You have to use in combination of a stop thrust. As the opponent makes a step forward, you lean off the front thigh,extend and hit. By leaning forward, it frees up your back leg to do the reverse lunge and gives you maximum range. Recover from that lunge, take a couple of quick retreats, and you will open up the distance so that your opponent will not have a tempo to hit you. If your timing is done properly, the fencer can steal a hitable tempo with the move and free the distance to find the blade or counterattack if they fail.

I learned that from an unnamed Olympic epee fencer and coach....

[jBirch]

There is a useful technique in Epee called a "Cave" (accent on the e - pronounced Kav-eh) in which the tip is severely angulated to the inside wrist of the same-handed opponent. That may be what they're thinking of.

The classic "reverse lunge" where the hand is extended yet the back foot reaches instead of the front has its place in all three weapons, though the lack of priority in epee obviously makes it more useful there then in the other two. It's used when a fencer is going backwards and yet needs to make a counter-attack w/ducking esquive.

The reverse lunge itself isn't really seen that often, having been replaced with the simpler "duck-extend-and-pray".

It's still a good "trick in the bag" if you need it though. It's also really good training to get the students thinking about their feet and about the various ways to move on the piste.

James.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by DenverFencing

You have to use in combination of a stop thrust. As the opponent makes a step forward, you lean off the front thigh,extend and hit. By leaning forward, it frees up your back leg to do the reverse lunge and gives you maximum range. Recover from that lunge, take a couple of quick retreats, and you will open up the distance so that your opponent will not have a tempo to hit you. If your timing is done properly, the fencer can steal a hitable tempo with the move and free the distance to find the blade or counterattack if they fail.

I learned that from an unnamed Olympic epee fencer and coach....

This is a different technique then a "reverse lunge".

James.

[Durando]

Counterattack to the toe. I use it and see it used all the time.

[epeelion]

When I am taught counterattack to the toe, though, I am told to extend my arm to hit at the same time as I extend my back leg to begin the retreat. I never actually go into a lunge position.

[Don Badowski]

Works well in sabre as a counterattack. If you stop cut while standing still, most opponents know enough to finish as fast as possible. If you retreat while making the stop cut, you're probably putting yourself out of range. But, if you get that back leg stretching out, weight forward, while extending for the cut, you can make a quick escape and just maybe catch your opponent taking that extra advance. I like to think of it in terms of a "counterattack retreat", as opposed to your normal "get out of town" retreat.

[MdA]

I wouldn't spend a lot of time training fencers to do this...especially in foil and sabre.

[Allen Evans]

I wouldn't spend any time drilling foil or saber fencers in this. I've seen it done in epee (for some fencers, it's easier on their bodies than a "normal" ducking action) but it's a specialty tool, just a like a duck. Usually there are more important issues a fencer should be practicing.

Allen Evans

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I wouldn't spend any time drilling foil or saber fencers in this.

Hmm. I've seen this as a way of introducing a stop hit to a beginning foil fencer. The idea of hanging on the front leg to hit, then quickly recovering back and retreating. I'm still unsure if I like that idea, but I think it definitely has its merits in terms of getting the point across.

[Allen Evans]

Changing tempo "inside" of the retreat (by hovering or delaying on the front leg) is not the same thing as a reverse lunge.

AE

[catwood1]

While its definitely not the same same, I just mean I have seen the reverse lunge introduced as a way of explaining it. Using a reverse lunge as a means to an end, and a way to teach the more correct action.

[DenverFencing]

What I am explaining is not an actual reverse lunge like a text book, but using the mechanics of the lunge in reverse to stop thrust, recover backwards, and retreat quickly away.

I use this technique with foil/sabre fencers as well. Why? Modern blockout time: .3 and .6 tenth of a second.

Foil/ Sabre: You got a marching fencer with their arm threatening but tip back. Lean forward off your front leg, thrust straight while kicking the back leg back, recover from your lunge-like action, and quickly retreating (adding perhaps a parry 4).

The marching fencer, after seeing and/or getting hit by a stop thrust, finishes with lunge. My stop-thrust (or riposte-parry) fencer has already recovered from their reverse lunge-like action and is retreating and looking for the easy parry. One light.

Great for tall and fast fencers.

A lot of post-modern foilists (2004 FIE) do this in the opposite direction stop thrust and step-in parry to the marching fencer (Desmet and Sanzo come to mind). But I watch Sanzo do this with his elongated on-guard the way I describe. I saw both actions on the 2006 WC (I believe) where he beat a Chinese fencer with a fair amount of one-light counterattacks.

I don't teach it as a rote footwork exercise but rather in context of a stop thrust.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by DenverFencing

You have to use in combination of a stop thrust.

As I understand it, a reverse lunge is basically a stop thrust with preparation to retreat. When attack comes, the reverse lunging fencer goes for the stop thrust, but steps back with the back foot at the same time. If timed properly, it costs no distance and gives the fencer executing the move the opportunity to retreat out of distance if the stop thrust fails.

It can be useful.

[emagdnim]

I only use it against highly offensive opponents; so rarely, but when I use it it works wonderfully. Generally to the footas seems to be the norm.

you simply need to use it against sabre fencer with an epee.

[Phrogger]

I was reading in my copy of "The Complete Guide to Fencing" (Barth/Beck 2007) today and interestingly, the backwards lunge is included in the section on esquives (dodging with counterattack), along with ducking, leaning, bending, withdrawal of target, inquartata, etc. I suppose in this context, grouped with these other moves it starts to make more sense to me. I gave a class on dodging tonight, and we had a good time with the following drill:

Fencer A: Attempts to hit fencer B with the back foot stationary at lunge distance.
Fencer B: Wearing mask but unarmed, keeps back foot stationary and attempts to evade all attacks by body movements alone.

Barth and Beck conclude that dodging is an essential skill for epeeists and effective when used sparingly and under the right conditions. They further assert that this is a common tactic among users of the French grip. Do pommelers agree?

[emagdnim]

as a pommeler I'd agree