Steel Sabre Guards

[zenpharaohs]

I'm looking for sabre guards like my old favorite type which was called "Olympic" when I used to get them from Santelli. Yes, that was 30 years ago. This is for non-electric sabres.

Because they are made of steel, they are quite heavy, and they ring like a fire bell when you parry. The added guard weight helps with point speed.

They don't seem to be currently available. What do people think are the nearest approximation among available guards?

[Craig]

The Leon Paul steel sabre guards would be the closest.

Craig

[zenpharaohs]

The Leon Paul steel sabre guards would be the closest.

Craig

Thanks!

[Alex_Paul]

We don't currently make any steel guards I am afraid.

Heavy guards and pomels IMO don't actually make the point faster they make it feelk faster. The fastes possible weapon is the lightest possible weapon.

If you are looking for a lighter feel to teh tip you would be better adding a heavy pommel as this has the maximum effect on ballance point with minimum added weight.

Alex

[Craig]

Alex,

My bad. I thought that you still had a steel guard buried down somewhere in the non electric sabre section.

Craig

[zenpharaohs]

Heavy guards and pomels IMO don't actually make the point faster they make it feelk faster.

They really do make it faster if you have the hand strength. This follows essentially by conservation of angular momentum (e.g. the old spinning figure skater pulling the arms and legs in analogy). But if you are not particularly big on physics, just doing some point control drills for time (the doorknob one for example) should show a difference if you have the hand strength. If you don't have a heavy guard to try this, you can load up the sabre with a French epee pommel to get a similar, although inferior feeling, effect.

The other thing about blade speed in extension is that it is dependent largely on how fast you can move your arm and hand. You can get dumbells that weigh one, two, and three pounds. If you make a movie of your hardest lunge with empty hand, and these light dumbells, you should see essentially no difference in the speed of extension as when you use one of the light dumbells. If you have problems with arm speed, up to a point you can correct this with weight training.

The other big reason to have a steel guard weapon around is for dry fencing. You get a lot more clarity about touches and parries to the hand and cuff with the charming sound.

[zenpharaohs]

Some suggested Uhlmann guards as being made from steel. I ordered some and they came this morning. They might be steel but they aren't that heavy nor do they ring well.

[erooMynohtnA]

They really do make it faster if you have the hand strength. This follows essentially by conservation of angular momentum (e.g. the old spinning figure skater pulling the arms and legs in analogy). But if you are not particularly big on physics, just doing some point control drills for time (the doorknob one for example) should show a difference if you have the hand strength. If you don't have a heavy guard to try this, you can load up the sabre with a French epee pommel to get a similar, although inferior feeling, effect.

Please explain how conservation of angular momentum makes your heavy guard faster. I am particularly big on physics.

[MHS Fencer]

They really do make it faster if you have the hand strength. This follows essentially by conservation of angular momentum (e.g. the old spinning figure skater pulling the arms and legs in analogy). ...

No.

More mass = more inertia to overcome = less acceleration when same amount of force is applied.

The figure skater example has to do with shifting the existing weight from a long moment arm to a short one, not adding additional weight.

[Grimaldi]

I'd be surprised to see anything other than a negligible effect from this. I think I know what's being discussed...I fight a lot of heavily armored SCA combat, and a heavy pommel/guard can make certain attacks from flicking/twisting the wrist quicker and help recover after an attack, but those movements aren't really used in fencing.

With such light weapons, and speed being so much more important than power, I'm not seeing the benefit (although the ringing effect for dry fencing may be a bonus in your particular case).

[HDG]

Some suggested Uhlmann guards as being made from steel. I ordered some and they came this morning. They might be steel but they aren't that heavy nor do they ring well.

Is the ringing just something you enjoy, or is there some fencing-related value to it?

[Inquartata]

Zen Warrior Armory, the SCA branch of Triplette, sells a steel sabre guard. It's modern Hungarian, though, not Olympic.

http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/cata...Fcategory%3D68

American Fencers Supply also carries a steel sabre guard, but it's a so-called Pecoraro, even less like an Olympic than the Triplette one...

http://www.amfence.com/html/590.html

[KD5MDK]

Is the ringing just something you enjoy, or is there some fencing-related value to it?

Zenpharaohs has said:

The other big reason to have a steel guard weapon around is for dry fencing. You get a lot more clarity about touches and parries to the hand and cuff with the charming sound.

I suspect that's a big part of it here.

[Alex_Paul]

a heavy pommel/guard can make certain attacks from flicking/twisting the wrist quicker

I think the point some people including myself are trying to make is that more weight will make it slower as it has more inertia to overcome. It may feel lighter or more controlled but physics suggests it is in fact slower for any given energy input.

[Inquartata]

Meh, and yet aren't there a lot of people who insist that canting a blade/tang makes a weapon "faster" even though the mass/weight doesn't change?

[telkanuru]

But it does change how it fits in your hand and where it balances, which changes its moment.

[Alex_Paul]

But it does change how it fits in your hand and where it balances, which changes its moment.

I agree that it feels more natural if that is what you mean by fits your hand but it changes where it balances by less than a mm if you are using a pistol grip.

[Insipiens]

I agree that it feels more natural if that is what you mean by fits your hand but it changes where it balances by less than a mm if you are using a pistol grip.

it [a set blade] might make your hit faster even if it doesn't make the blade measurably "faster" (I do not think that a blade on its own can be in any way "fast") by keeping the point nearer the target? Of course that depends on what you are doing with the blade in the first place I suppose.

[telkanuru]

I agree that it feels more natural if that is what you mean by fits your hand but it changes where it balances by less than a mm if you are using a pistol grip.

Mm, perhaps it should be changed to "the way it balances".

For example, an uncanted epee will naturally point up and away from the main target, which is why you cant it down and in.

Actually, that's not entirely true. There are two dimensions to consider here. While a cant has very little effect in the vertical plane, it has a massive effect on the CoG in the horizontal. A cant that is slightly to small or large in the horizontal direction can easily cause a grip to rotate on an extension, or balance wrong.

[KD5MDK]

I agree that it feels more natural if that is what you mean by fits your hand but it changes where it balances by less than a mm if you are using a pistol grip.

Wouldn't getting the pistol grip on the sabre change the COG more substantially than that?