Proper epee en garde position?

[Phrogger]

I'm looking for the most accepted epee en garde position. My copy of "Foil, Saber, and Epee Fencing" (Garret/Kaidanov/Pezza 1994) says to keep the weight on the front leg, rear foot balanced on the ball of the foot and angled slightly forward, rear arm relaxed, and weapon arm only slightly extended. However my newer "Complete Guide to Fencing" (Barth/Beck 2005) recommends a centered balance, with an almost fully extended weapon arm, and a classic high rear arm position (more classic/old school).

I think I understand the reasons for the various arm positions, but I'm concerned here with the balance.. Is it better for your balance to be centered or weighted forward? In my study of the recent Olympic epeeists, I saw them with their weight almost entirely on the front leg. This would seem to me to be detrimental to mobility. So on to my question: How should intermediate level epeeists be instructed to keep their balance: centered or on the front leg?

[RITFencing]

Most accepted? I don't think there is one. Each fencer/coach needs to look at what they want to do on the strip and adjust their on guard stance accordingly.

[Phrogger]

But what possible advantage can shifting the weight forward provide?

[Tomas N]

But what possible advantage can shifting the weight forward provide?

You can retreat faster?

Tomas

[Phrogger]

I would expect the opposite, since it would take longer to shift the weight rearward than if the weight is centered.

[RITFencing]

If your weight is on your front leg, which leg will you push with?

Having it shifted forward will increase the power of any action relying on that leg. However, it will also become more fixed to the ground.

So an advance, which relies on the front foot to reach and the back foot to push, becomes more difficult. A retreat, which does the opposite, is easier. Lunging is harder. Fleching is a bit easier, depending on how you do it.

[ddavis]

If you keep your weight on your front foot, you can definitely retreat faster. This is because if the rear leg is unloaded, it is easy to lift the back foot, step backwards, and push off the front foot.

Think about what would happen if you had your weight on your rear leg. First you need to shift your weight forward to release the back foot, then you can step backwards.

Whether or not having your weight forward is good for your epee fencing is another matter entirely.

---

Edit: Beat me to the punch...what he said ^^^

[AaronK]

I disagree with the statement:

So an advance, which relies on the front foot to reach and the back foot to push, becomes more difficult.

I will agree in that the traditional way the advance is taught: "raising the toes" first- which shifts the weight back to the rear leg- is more difficult, or at least takes more time.
If the heel of the front foot is the first thing that is raised, this is not the case.

Mechanically, the body moves by pushing itself forward rather than dragging itself. It may be the case that we are taught to "pull" ourselves forward with the lead leg, but I think this is more of a mental construct (something to mentally focus on) rather than actually be the case. It's along the same lines as the tip of the weapon "pulls" you forward- although with the feet it's possible, I don't think that it's efficient movement.

This certainly may be moot if we consider that many epeeist's don't use conventional footwork but "bounce".

Phrogger:
I think that you are going to get different answers depending on the "school" of fencing. Each will justify where to be based on their underlying philosophy.
If you are trying to make a case for balance- it's not so much that one position will provide better balance than the other, rather that the fencer will adapt with training. Neither position is natural for the human body (there are no locomotor fencing movements that we use naturally, all must be learned), so balance must be acquired through transfer of learning (from similar sports-skills or movement based skills) and practice.
I would answer your question: Intermediate level epeeists must keep their balance in the same place as advanced level epeeists, and in the same place as beginning epeeists. Unfortunately that leaves you to decide which position will ultimately favor your own fencing (or in turn what you decide to coach).

[Don Badowski]

6 years ago I attended a Michael Marx seminar, and the subject came up of weight distribution for en garde. Instead of the usual 50/50, he had us do a 55/45, with the 55 up front. His reasoning being that while having weight forward made you a little more vulnerable to an attack, it more than made up for it in overcoming inertia when getting your own lunge going.

[Phrogger]

Great advice/info here from everyone. I especially appreciate the Marx anecdote since it is so specific. But how does keeping the weight forward make a lunge easier? ddavis and RITFencing pointed out that it only makes retreating faster. That seems to be more in line with a defensive posture, which is more common in epee.

[Allen Evans]

There is a lot of concern about teaching "on guard" and I think it's misplaced. Very rarely does even an intermediate fencer stand in "on guard". Fencers are in a constant state of movement, and that implies that the weight is shifting often. With very advanced fencers, they are often making their footwork on the balls of their feet, making a lot of very minute and fast adjustements to their balance and weight distribution (I talk about that a little bit in this blog entry.

I love to watch the Italian fencers in motion. Their weight bias seems to shift constantly, depending on what they want to do and when they want to do it. At the same time, they seem able to control their momentum with no effort.

Allen Evans

[Don Badowski]

But how does keeping the weight forward make a lunge easier? ddavis and RITFencing pointed out that it only makes retreating faster. That seems to be more in line with a defensive posture, which is more common in epee.

I never said "easier". I said overcome inertia.

What follows applies to the accelerating lunge, not the explosive lunge.

If you go en garde standing straight up, knees locked, when you pick up that front foot, you're going to have quite a wait before your body picks up any speed into a lunge. If you go en garde with your feet wide apart, way beyond shoulder width, you pick up the front foot and you are going to be on your way to very fast, but very short lunge. The reason being your center of gravity is way ahead of the pivot point, namely your back ankle. As soon as that front foot comes up, inertia is a non-factor.

Of course, while keeping the feet that wide may have maneuvering advantages, there is that nagging disadvantage of a short lunge. Going en garde with a normal, shoulder width stance, but putting your weight just a little forward is a good compromise.

And while I can’t speak for RITFencing, you will notice that taking the 55/45 stance, pushing off the front leg is much more powerful. The defensive disadvantage is that your torso is going to be 1 or 2 inches closer to your opponent.

Time to check up on my copy ofPhilosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica.

[Fechter1]

I'm not sure agree that leaning forward (putting majority of the weight on the front leg) would make your retreat faster... Seems counterintuitive.
(Caution: The following are a complete and utter layman's interpretation of the physics and biomechanics involved...)
Locating the center of gravity closer to the front leg means that either the CoG is located at a higher angle (meaning that a front leg push would propel the mass more up than back) or low enough that the front leg is pushed beyond the power stroke angles (IIRC, the leg power stroke, i.e. the angle at which the quad muscles can generate the most power is at ~45-60 degree extension). In this matter I disagree with RITFencing and ddavis on the effect of front leaning bias... The power in the leg does not depend on the load/weight distribution, but on the muscle strength (which includes the knee angle, see power stroike angle above) as well as the efficiency at which this force can be applied to the intended goal (i.e. movement of the body in either direction).

After all, if you put 99% weight on the front leg (basically standing on one leg, back leg used only for balance and forward propulsion), you're not going to be able to back up very quickly. Yes, you may be able to push harder, but the direction of that force vectory is not going to be very conducive to lateral acceleration.

Front leg bias is going to make forward motion easier than backward, again due to the power angles involved (back leg pushing more laterally, i.e. in the direction of intended travel), as well as greatly increasing the perceived speed of the 'drop step' fleche (pulling the front foot behind your CoG, meaning a shorter but quicker fleche).

Again, I am not up to speed on the precise biomechanics involved, just voicing my thoughts...


Oh, and like Allen said, epee fencing at certain levels becomes such a fluid game that a static en guarde is going to hinder you rather than help you...

$.02

[jBirch]

There is a lot of concern about teaching "on guard" and I think it's misplaced. Very rarely does even an intermediate fencer stand in "on guard". Fencers are in a constant state of movement, and that implies that the weight is shifting often. With very advanced fencers, they are often making their footwork on the balls of their feet, making a lot of very minute and fast adjustements to their balance and weight distribution (I talk about that a little bit in this blog entry.

I love to watch the Italian fencers in motion. Their weight bias seems to shift constantly, depending on what they want to do and when they want to do it. At the same time, they seem able to control their momentum with no effort.

Allen Evans

Respectfully, I disagree with your assertion, though not with the specifics backing it up.

"En garde" is the "in between" position. For the micro-moment that any fencing movement is completed (step forward, backward, ballestra, appel, lunge recovery, etc...) the body should be "en garde", balance even and ready to move in any direction. It's the neutral position from which all movement is possible.

If the body is "loaded" in any specific direction after the movement, then the fencer is "carrying momentum" in that direction. Sure, at the higher levels this "set up" creates opportunity, but for individuals first learning to move (and later, trying to master movement), it's important that each action "return en garde", with the body balanced and ready to move.

I agree that a "static", "standing still" en garde is a useless "position". However, teaching it and enforcing its correctness during the skills acquisition stage is a key to learning real mobility.

It's in the same vein as teaching fencing steps VERRRRRRY SLOOOOOOWLY. *grin*

James.

[ddavis]

After all, if you put 99% weight on the front leg (basically standing on one leg, back leg used only for balance and forward propulsion), you're not going to be able to back up very quickly. Yes, you may be able to push harder, but the direction of that force vectory is not going to be very conducive to lateral acceleration.

It may be true that (depending on the width of your stance) the force vectors are not good for pushing back into a retreat, but realize that given the above scenario, you are not able to take a step forward at all! You can't lift your front foot to take a step forward if it is supporting your body weight. Best you can do is some kind of strange hop forward.

So, even in this extreme case, having your weight on your front foot is better for retreating than advancing.

[Fechter1]

It may be true that (depending on the width of your stance) the force vectors are not good for pushing back into a retreat, but realize that given the above scenario, you are not able to take a step forward at all! You can't lift your front foot to take a step forward if it is supporting your body weight. Best you can do is some kind of strange hop forward.

So, even in this extreme case, having your weight on your front foot is better for retreating than advancing.

Ok I just tried several experimental runs, not at 99%-1%, but more like 90-10(I'm still recovering from my last surgery)... Mechanics of my FW are thus: I lift the leading directional foot off the ground (advance=>lift front foot, retreat=>lift rear foot), letting my mass arc in the intended direction (using the 'trailing' foot as a fulcrum), which allows the trailing leg to apply its power in a more efficient way (more lateral application of the muscle strength).
Results:

Moving forward: Lifted the front foot for a very quick step, temporarily supporting all weight from the back leg for the forward push. Result was a very quick step forward, albeit a little shorter than usual.

Moving backwards: Lifted the back foot, but shifting the weight to a position where the front leg could push efficiently against the CoG was a lot slower. Result was a longer, but rather slow step backwards...

Maybe the mechanics of my footwork are unusual/different enough that it works this way for me (which I doubt), but FOR ME (emphasis), shifting my weight onto one leg results in easier and quicker FW movement in that direction...

[piste off]

Front leg bias is going to make forward motion easier than backward, again due to the power angles involved (back leg pushing more laterally, i.e. in the direction of intended travel), as well as greatly increasing the perceived speed of the 'drop step' fleche (pulling the front foot behind your CoG, meaning a shorter but quicker fleche).

This is consistent with what Csiszar (Hungarian sabre coach during the 1940s, who took over from Italo Santelli) taught. If you go to the U of P fencing room, there is a drawing still on the wall that shows almost a 70/30 weight distribution. Now that was back when you could fleche in sabre, so that may have something to do with it.

Yefim Litvan (NYAC coach) is also a big proponent of forward weight distribution in epee. If you ever saw Tamir Bloom, probably his best student, he clearly favored that. His rationale, however, is that it also allows you to get out faster (which seems to be counterintuitive). He is also a big proponent of short/limited lunges and more fleches - so that may be a factor. Kogler, the other AC coach, favors the more balanced (50/50) weight distribution.

R-

[catwood1]

After some rather crude testing similar to Fechter1, I had identical results. With all of my weight on my front foot, I find it easier to advance, and will all of my weight on my back foot, I find it easier to retreat.

[Allen Evans]

(unverified experimental results

(additional results)

(additional experimentation)

What the ?

None of that makes any sense.

[keith]

None of that makes any sense.

lift the heel to release the hip, push with back leg. Perfectly simple.