Proper epee en garde position?

[Fechter1]

I'm still a little fuzzy on just how leaning forward (which is basically what you're doing when you disproportionally load the front leg) facilitates quicker motion to the rear... Could someone please explain the biomechanics thereof in detail?
Just asking because my experience has generally been the opposite. So unless a) my footwork mechanics are significantly different from everybody else or b) my memory is fading in my advanced (hee hee) age, there seems to be some disagreement here...

Thanks

[oiuyt]

my memory is fading in my advanced (hee hee) age

Perhaps if you loaded your front leg a bit more it would be easier to get your age to retreat...

-B

[Schiavona]

But then, my footwork classes might be different than yours.

Is this a variation of "My Kung Fu is different from your Kung Fu?"

[epeelion]

Just a general question: why are people so convinced that it is so much more important to be able to retreat quickly in epee as opposed to going forwards. You should take a few retreats at a time at most in epee, unless you're really being chased (which, in my experience, is infrequently). The majority of the time, when you counterattack, you should be going forwards TOWARDS the target, closing the distance. The more you run away, the longer it takes for you to close the distance, the farther away you're keeping your point from your opponent, and the more time you opponent has to hit you.

I disagree that if you keep your weight evenly distributed you tend to push upwards. Even distribution means more effortless changes in direction, which translates to more accelerated attacks.

[telkanuru]

Because if your opponent knows that after an initial burst your backwards movement is impeded, (s)he can set you up. It's the only way I had for beating several fencers for a while, and is quite useful.

[Allen Evans]

You should take a few retreats at a time at most in epee, unless you're really being chased (which, in my experience, is infrequently).

I agree. You see these long phrases of one person going forward only at the very low levels or the very high levels. Most of the time, two retreats is all you need (fencing a little bit this weekend at the NAC with some of the Div 2 guys -- admittedly not the BEST sample of fencing -- confirmed that again for me).

The majority of the time, when you counterattack, you should be going forwards TOWARDS the target, closing the distance.

I don't understand this statement. "Majority of the time", really? You should expand on this.

AE

[epeelion]

My thought was that many people like to retreat and try to pick at the hand as they counterattack. In my experience, and the experience of all the people I fence at the NYAC, when you counterattack, you should move forwards and close the distance. Running away while counterattacking tends to be very ineffective. I said majority of the time because I've had a habit recently of making very absolute statements, which perhaps I should avoid. There are, I'm sure, situations where it might be advantageous to go back, but otherwise I counterattack (or intend to do so) while moving forwards at my opponent, or at least not while running away.

To Telk-The thing is, my further retreats aren't impeded at all. As piste off, for instance, could tell you, it can be extremely tiring to chase me down the strip. I still have some foilist in me, and can run away pretty damn fast. It's just usually a bad idea. But my en guarde doesn't impede my backwards movement.

[Allen Evans]

My thought was that many people like to retreat and try to pick at the hand as they counterattack. In my experience, and the experience of all the people I fence at the NYAC, when you counterattack, you should move forwards and close the distance.

So this becomes more like an "attack in prep", in which you goad the opponent to make an attack, while you attack into the opponent while moving forward?

AE

[epeelion]

Somewhat, yes. Aladar tends to drill it into our heads that we shouldn't run away quickly, that one should stay close in epee and focus on remises, not on not getting hit. So, most counterattacks I make are at the very least in en guarde, if not moving forwards. I can move back afterwards, of course, but only after I have made a solid hit, and I should rather be ready to remise if I miss, not run back. The point, overall, is to not run away. As you agreed, you generally won't need more than one or two retreats. Move at your opponent's target, don't run away from it.

I had a habit of running back from my foil days (with old timings), so he may have overemphasized this concept for me (he still has fits whenever he sees me do it, hehe), but I know he says it in general as well.

The counterattack, for him, is almost always made with stolen tempo, whether it be hand or foot. So you could think of it as an attack in preparation, I guess. His tactical wheel is very particular with terms, however, so he wouldn't want you to.

[telkanuru]

To Telk-The thing is, my further retreats aren't impeded at all. As piste off, for instance, could tell you, it can be extremely tiring to chase me down the strip. I still have some foilist in me, and can run away pretty damn fast. It's just usually a bad idea. But my en guarde doesn't impede my backwards movement.

I don't disagree on any particular point. Some people can really weight their front foot without any detriment to their retrograde motion (ex. Becca Ward), but a large portion of the time it manifests 2-3 retreats and a butt-stick-out counter attack. Y'all are probably just freaks

Re: counter attacks- It's not a binary. A lot of what I draw on here is pretty prominent in saber these days. It's a very good thing to fade away with a counter several times and then step in when they push a little harder than they originally did. The more you can convince them they want to push forward, the better.

[epeelion]

Wait, I'm actually on the side of not weighting the front foot, so I'm saying that even when I don't, I can still retreat easily.

As for the counters, you're right, of course. It's not black and white. Which is why you still have to take a few retreats a lot of times. My point is mainly that running away the length of the strip is usually unnecessary, so it's not so important to load the front leg to be able to retreat easily. Especially with the french, it's great to draw your opponent out, and THEN close the distance. I definitely agree with that. But when you go to actually make the counter and push, normally I close, I don't keep retreating.

[telkanuru]

Wait, I'm actually on the side of not weighting the front foot, so I'm saying that even when I don't, I can still retreat easily.

Well color me confused then. We were both making the same point?

/headdesk

[epeelion]

Hehe, yep.

No harm, no foul.