Foil before epee?

[tkrueger13]

I often read this forum, but frankly I don’t sufficient experience to contribute. However, I would like to draw on the expertise that clearly exists here. There’s currently a debate raging at our club as to whether or not youth fencers who want to specialize in epee should first become proficient in foil. I’d be grateful if anyone would comments or direct me to an existing thread.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

I'm a foil fencer, but I don't see any reason that somone who wants to specialize in epee should start with foil unless their epee coach uses techniques they develop in foil specifically for epee. Foil before epee is kind of outdated, I believe.

On the other hand, I would question someone as to WHY they prefer epee before trying any of the other weapons. Why not try them all and THEN decide?

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

On second reading, you actually say should they be "proficient." The answer is a resounding no...they do not have to be proficient in foil before taking up epee.

[Sean Butler]

I can't be considered an expert on this, but Beloit sounds correct to me. The only exception I might make to starting with Epee would be age. If you are starting with children under 13 or so, and want to give them a weapon it should probably be a foil. Epee can be painful and heavy for a younger child.

[Allen Evans]

(Buy smaller epees....)

Why is the debate raging?

What weapon is fenced the most at club?

How experianced are your teachers in foil, or epee?

What is the club's long term goal for these youth fencers? Future competitive fencers? Recreation? Summer program?

Are you segregating people into two weapons (or three) from the start or just looking for a weapon to start everyone out in?

There are a ton of questions you need to answer. The fact that there is a debate inplies that these questions are being asked at your club. You'll get better advice if you post some of that discussion here.

Allen Evans

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I often read this forum, but frankly I don’t sufficient experience to contribute. However, I would like to draw on the expertise that clearly exists here. There’s currently a debate raging at our club as to whether or not youth fencers who want to specialize in epee should first become proficient in foil. I’d be grateful if anyone would comments or direct me to an existing thread.

Becoming proficient in foil is the traditional way of starting fencing in the United States. Coaches who are used to teaching epee to students who have first learned foil may become less effective when trying to teach someone who has not yet learned foil. Club mates might become unhappy if THEY all had to learn foil first, but the new kid doesn't.

There are benefits to knowing a bit about more than one weapon, in that you bring new insight into your primary weapon you might not have otherwise gotten.

Those seem to me to be all of the benefits of requiring learning foil first. But it could be said of learning sabre first, or learning epee first if that was the tradition.

As long as a coach is equally comfortable teaching each weapon from scratch, as they really ought to be in my opinion, there isn't a huge benefit, and there might be a number of down sides.

Some people just don't grok right-of-way. They might love epee, and they might eventually understand right-of-way, but they aren't going to stick around in foil or sabre and be happy or successful.

College teams are a situation in which having everyone start in foil would be disastrous.

[dtcaslick]

The reasoning I have heard for starting with foil first is that you can transition to epee or saber without too much trouble. Starting with either saber or epee and then trying to move to one of the other weapons is supposed to be much harder...at least that's what I have been told.



Todd

[dwilcomb]

I'll add in my $0.02. (Inflation and exchange rate adjusted.) I can see why teaching foil would be beneficial. When learning and fencing foil as a beginner, the stress is on form and tempo. Epee tends to become a sloppy stab-fest for newbies, whereas in foil students are forced to develop good habits under a more stringent set of rules.

I guess the point is it's easier to learn the more regimented forms of foil and then loosen up for Epee than it is to become comfortable with the relative freedom of Epee and have to "adjust up" to become familiar with foil.

(I'm noticeably leaving off a weapon because I haven't been taught Sabre formally, and don't know enough about the training in it to speak intelligently.)

[peet]

As Allen says, much depends on things we don't know, like what the goals are and what the current situation is. But:

My ideas about this question stem from the fact that it's hard to know what is the "right" weapon for a fencer until after they've fenced for a little while. That being the case, it's good if the fencer can easily transition to another weapon if they don't fit with their first one.

That brings us to the choice of first weapon. Conventional wisdom (which I happen to agree with (and I fence all three)) is that it's much easier to transition away from ROW than towards it. Fencing with the ROW stricture and then being relieved of it is way easier than fencing without that stricture and then having it imposed.

You did use the word "proficient" though. I wouldn't force a new fencer to stick with foil long enough to get very good at it if it doesn't seem to fit them. I'd say put people in foil only so long as it takes for them (or the coach) to decide it's not for them.

So, if I were the architect of a beginning fencing program, we'd start with foil, but give the students a "taste test" of the other two weapons very early, so that if they really don't grok ROW, or prefer to whack rather than poke, they can transition to the other weapon(s) early on.

-p

[wwalkerjr]

I recommend following the advice of your teacher; so much the better if he/she is a fencing master.
I learned the old way: foil then epee and/or sabre. Back in the day (25-30 years ago), it seemed more people fenced all three weapons. Today, it seems that there is more specialization. However, there are more tournaments today than I remember in the old days.
I always thought that both weapons were enjoyable in their own right. Try all three for that matter.
My simplistic opinion, without any scientific validation, is that if you jump to epee, you may not get as much emphasis on parries as you might get if you started with foil. Obviously, in foil, you must prevent an opponent's attack from scoring before you can score. Therefore, you must learn to parry. In epee, parry/reposte is only one way to prevail against an attack. I observe that it is hard to learn to parry effectively, so many epee newbies spend their time learning to stop thrust or counter attack. That can be a serious limitation as you begin to compete. There are similar benefits from learning the differences in distance for each weapon. As I return to both weapons, it seems that foil bout include more complex attacks for than epee bouts.
There is no charge for this advice and you can expect full value.

[tkrueger13]

First, thank you all for your insights and wisdom. Let me try to address Allen Evans’ pertinent questions.
1) The debate seems to stem from the fact that almost all of our rated fencers are epeeists; although the coach was successful in both weapons, he prefers the artistry foil. He, like many of the coaches mentioned in this forum, has a strong personality and strong opinions to accompany it. He refers to epee fencers as “gunslingers.” We’re a small club with more strips than qualified referees, and the simplified scoring stops much squabbling among the young fencers left to themselves to bout. Additionally, I think many youths are attracted to epee because virtually all the juniors and adults fence epee.
2) There is a strong push for all fencers to compete. We don’t have a large number of adult fencers, so the majority of the club is comprised of youth, cadet, and junior fencers.
3) We don’t offer saber. Everyone starts with foil, but many of the kids gravitate towards epee within a few months.
Thanks again.

[Hauptman]

First, thank you all for your insights and wisdom. Let me try to address Allen Evans’ pertinent questions.
1) The debate seems to stem from the fact that almost all of our rated fencers are epeeists; although the coach was successful in both weapons, he prefers the artistry foil. He, like many of the coaches mentioned in this forum, has a strong personality and strong opinions to accompany it. He refers to epee fencers as “gunslingers.” We’re a small club with more strips than qualified referees, and the simplified scoring stops much squabbling among the young fencers left to themselves to bout. Additionally, I think many youths are attracted to epee because virtually all the juniors and adults fence epee.
2) There is a strong push for all fencers to compete. We don’t have a large number of adult fencers, so the majority of the club is comprised of youth, cadet, and junior fencers.
3) We don’t offer saber. Everyone starts with foil, but many of the kids gravitate towards epee within a few months.
Thanks again.

Since the trend in your club is a gradual drift of your fencers to epee then you might at some time end up a strictly epee fencers club.

So all other considerations aside (about which I agree with Peet above), starting beginners with foil will help maintain a steady base of foil fencers and preserve some variety in your club environment.

This is an important point on it's own.

[oiuyt]

Besides, it's impossible to get good at epee or sabre without a foil background. You just don't learn how to fence correctly. Especially parries and artistry.

And don't get me started on those crazies that start in epee (or sabre) and then eventually want to change weapons. It's just too hard to transition.

-B

[SenorEquis]

College teams are a situation in which having everyone start in foil would be disastrous.

Our college team starts everyone in foil, and I wouldn't call our situation "disastrous" by any means. I doubt that any of the new fencers who leave the club do so because of right-of-way confusion and would have stayed if they had started with epee.

[Allen Evans]

Oiuyt: quit trolling, it's unseemly for someone with your reputation.

tkrueger13: You have a bigger problem than what weapon to start first. Your club and your coach seem to be on different pages. If everyone fences epee, and you start fencers in foil only to see them become epee fencers a few months later, why teach them foil? I suspect that the underlying argument isn't what weapon to start your fencers in, but who is running your club. But perhaps that's another thread.

It's certainly not impossible to transition people from epee to the other weapons. It's seen as difficult because the path to do so isn't always so clear as transferring fencers from foil to the other weapons. Of course, this is somewhat speculation on my part: I've taught a few people in epee or saber right from the start, but never had to transition them to foil, they were perfectly happy where they were, or they needed to be there anyway(in the case of pentathletes).

You don't mention whether new fencers are introduced through classes or through one on one instruction. If you are introducing them to fencing in classes, you might consider Peet's approach: the class is structured around general building of fencing skills, and all the weapons are introduced early. If someone has a gravitation towards one, there doesn't have to be the traditional four years of foil, three years of saber, and two years of epee appraoch (which was the approach in my first club). This method takes a little bit of thought (and some teaching skill) but might make everyone happy (or unhappy, as the case may be).


Allen Evans

[epeemike81]

I often read this forum, but frankly I don’t sufficient experience to contribute. However, I would like to draw on the expertise that clearly exists here. There’s currently a debate raging at our club as to whether or not youth fencers who want to specialize in epee should first become proficient in foil. I’d be grateful if anyone would comments or direct me to an existing thread.

People who want to fence epee should start in epee. There is nothing you can learn in foil that you can't learn in epee, and there are plenty of habits which you will pick up in foil and later need to break in epee.

The only reason anybody ever did this was tradition, and you know what they say about that...


In this case, "Incredibly stupid" should probably be replaced by "Not at all helpful, and very slightly detrimental."

-m

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Our college team starts everyone in foil, and I wouldn't call our situation "disastrous" by any means. I doubt that any of the new fencers who leave the club do so because of right-of-way confusion and would have stayed if they had started with epee.

I suppose, many years, most of the fencers at the college I graduated start in foil, too. But they end up trying everything else within a week as well.

First off, our foil squad.... often didn't keep people. Traditionally.

Also, the foil squad would be full of people who didn't know what they were doing because they were first years, and then by sophomore year they would have to switch in order for the team to have other squads... and then they'd not know what they were doing that year too...

You can get away with it if you have a large team, a team with many people with experience, or if you don't have events where you've committed to having full squads.

For us, it was no, no, and yes. We specialized early.

[FoilBlender]

Didn't read the responses but to the OP-- Absolutely not. Because if they start fencing foil (the greaterst weapon of all) they won't want to fence epee!

[Redblade]

I dunno if there's one right answer.

I think, though, that an early foundation in foil provides the tactical thought, language and technical skills that help lead to greater proficiency in epee or saber.

But I'm probably biased from my own experience, too.

[telkanuru]

Trying to break ingrained ROW habits sucks. Never mind that epee and sabre have very similar timing and distance, and foil definitely does not.

Sounds like your coach needs a stickoutofassectomy.