Foil before epee?

**NGV** · 09-15-2008 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by OROD

The point is (no pun intended) that the skills they'll learn in foil will translate well to the other weapons. The same cant be said the other way around.

Hmm - I'm pretty confident in the conventional wisdom that foil-to-epee is easier than epee-to-foil. I'm not so sure that foil-to-saber is easier than epee-to-saber.

**tdwg83** · 09-15-2008 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Really, does anyone actually believe these stereotypes about weapon "personalities"? Do coaches really make decisions based on these criteria?

Allen Evans

I would venture to say it depends on how the coach trains each weapon.

**TodG** · 09-15-2008 06:20 PM

I remember hearing this debate when I started fencing in 1983.

**Stasky** · 09-15-2008 06:25 PM

I'm going to say that you should probably learn on foil. If you jump right into Epee, it's gonna be that much harder to break your habits and learn to obey the right of way if you ever branch into a new weapon. Plus, the lessons in point control can't hurt.

**MyrddinsPrecint** · 09-15-2008 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Stasky

IPlus, the lessons in point control can't hurt.

On the other hand, they don't help that much when you switch to sabre....

**ysbadadden** · 09-16-2008 01:49 AM

People have already mentioned this, but ...
If your club starts beginners in group lessons, and if all the beginners start at the same time in one group (not weapon segregated), then the group starts with generic en garde, advance, retreat, lunge, distance exercises, glove games ... none of it weapon-specific. But students want to handle a weapon and do something with it. So you give out the foils. They're lighter and therefore easier to manage than epees; the handwork is smaller and therefore easier to control than sabre; and they don't hurt as much as either when they land. In the same course, introduce and demonstrate the other weapons. New fencers should be encouraged to defer a choice of weapon until they've been at least exposed to all three.

Epee can be fenced with enjoyment, and even with some success against more highly trained opponents, earlier than foil or sabre. This is an attraction, but it can become a trap. So (if you''re the coach) you want to ensure that your epeeists continue to drill. (Of course, if you're giving individual lessons, you can insist on control and precision.)

**Dr Epee** · 09-16-2008 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

On the other hand, they don't help that much when you switch to sabre....

Actually, being a saberist who is comfortable using their point can have some advantages, although that could be achieved with Epee or Foil.

I think the most important point is a practical one. Foils are easier for little kids to hold, at least early on. Also dry foils are easier and cheaper for the club to have on hand for initial lessons.

**Tyldak** · 09-16-2008 09:37 AM

In my first club, which was all ages 9-18, we did physical training, mostly footwork-centric, for the first half-dozen practices. During the time the coach would size you up. He decided what weapon to put you in presumably a combination of your physical traits, your temperment, and the overall needs of the program (we were always trying to field a 3-weapon team to fence dual meets). I, along with most (but not all) kids, was placed in foil. It was a good fit. Some kids were later changed to other weapons. For example, if a kid grew very tall and lanky, and only had so-so results in foil, he would be transitioned into epee.

In my current club all fencers start with epee. The argument is that epee is the easiest to grasp in terms of scoring/rules, and half the beginners won't make it past a year of training anyway. If a fencer makes it to the point of beomcing an "intermediate" - getting a basic grasp of epee, getting comfortable with bouting, perhaps even competing a little bit - he/she is afforded the chance to learn foil or saber. Since the majority of our fencers are epee fencers, these aren't popular options, but they are out there.

The school of thought that there's a special recipie for each weapon is kind of dated. Nowadays one can start in any weapon and transition to any other - presuming one has (a) decent coach(es) to help you along.

My two cents.

**MyrddinsPrecint** · 09-16-2008 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Epee

Actually, being a saberist who is comfortable using their point can have some advantages, although that could be achieved with Epee or Foil.

I think the most important point is a practical one. Foils are easier for little kids to hold, at least early on. Also dry foils are easier and cheaper for the club to have on hand for initial lessons.

In my experience, it's not using the point, but using the last inch and a half. YMMV.

I still can't hold a french grip the way most do, and have often had to readjust people's grips on pistol grips-- if you're not familiar with guns or people holding pistol grips, it's apparently not that obvious.

I find sabres pretty self explanatory, though...

**epeemike81** · 09-16-2008 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

In my experience, it's not using the point, but using the last inch and a half. YMMV.

must... show... restraint.

-m

**living vicariously** · 09-16-2008 10:14 PM

Hi, new to the site, and 9 year old just started fencing tonight. He is psyched.

I am looking at beginner sets, but am not up to speed on the size of the blade for kids - should I get a 0 or a 2 for him?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. I will learn.

**oiuyt** · 09-16-2008 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by living vicariously

Hi, new to the site, and 9 year old just started fencing tonight. He is psyched.

I am looking at beginner sets, but am not up to speed on the size of the blade for kids - should I get a 0 or a 2 for him?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. I will learn.

Either is legal.

0 is shorter (and therefore lighter). Which is best will depend largely on your son and his size/strength.

You should talk to his coach and see what s/he recommends.

-B

**Inquartata** · 09-17-2008 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by epeemike81

must... show... restraint.

-m

Have you tried reviewing baseball stats in your head?

**Inquartata** · 09-17-2008 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by wwalkerjr

Good heavens, the kid was asking for ADVICE, which Orod gave. He did not say, "Obey me!" And you, the forum curmudgeon, have turned this into a benevalent dictatorship?

Who ever said anything about "benevolent"?

But yeah, he gave advice. It was BAD advice, though, unless you are joining the Prussian Army. So I said as much.

**telkanuru** · 09-17-2008 05:17 PM