The aging, achy fencer

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I had terrible pain under the kneecap, chondromalacia patella, on my front leg for years caused by fencing. After seeing sport med doctor, I tried strengthen exercises and stretching but it didnt help that much. I final fixed that probelm by replacing my gel heelcup with a hard plastic one and a different brand of fencing shoes. After years of living with that, the pain was gone in a week! The hard plastic heel cups are from fencing.net, Thanks Craig!

I never heard of using fish oil for pain. Will have to try that and Zinc. I feel so exhausted the day after fencing. It makes getting up and going to work the next day very difficult. I had that problem since my late twenties and im 33 now.

What is Zinc Tally?

Zinc tally is a liquid you put in your mouth. If you cannot taste it, you're zinc deficient. If you have adequate levels of zinc, you'll want to spit it out immediately and you'll have nightmares about it forever. Best to test every 2-3 weeks.

As for the tiredness... well, adequate sleep plus a good diet goes a long way. You may find that zinc helps you sleep better. Thats what it did for me, along with vivid dreams.

[Redblade]

I'm amused by the many helpful responses -- I asked only about onset age.

[Fencergrl]

What you expect us to stay on topic??? You must be new here.

[crquack]

Pains after fencing? Age 52. The day after I started fencing...

As the original poster did not ask for advice on cure I shall desist. All I suggest that whatever you decide to take has been demonstrated to be effective and safe. Much of what has been posted here has not.

[Carpinator]

I'm amused by the many helpful responses -- I asked only about onset age.

Had to retire from fencing at 34 my body hurt so much... now at the age of 46, with Costco Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM, Alleve and a steady diet of bashing skinny punks, I don't really hurt that bad except maybe right after a tournament.

[whtouche]

Here's a word of advice: Anything that seems slightly outside the realm of normal aches and pains you should get checked out. I used to never get injured, had never had a muscle strain or pull or sprain or broken anything, so I never really thought about it. I started to have pains and minor aches and injuries and mostly ignored them.

Several trips to the doctor later I have two bulging discs in my back, 8 weeks ago had surgery to repair a torn labrum in my shoulder, and soon after I recover from that I'm facing surgery to repair my elbow. I still haven't talked to my orthopedist about my knees. All this at 24.

So make sure you take care of yourself and be smart about what your body is telling you.

[black card]

right when i started reading this thread

[headcut]

For those of you who are old enough to actually have persistent joint aches or pain the morning after fencing, at what age did you start to notice it?

I'm in my mid-50's. After not fencing for about 30 yrs, and starting back up recently, my leading leg would be sore from lunges for days. I'm fine now when I fence but it took about 4 weeks before I could fence and not feel stiff for days after. I do have some joint pain and stiffness on a daily basis (and it's a little worse the day after fencing). Pretty much noticed the little aches and pains in my 40's, but this is after a pretty athletic career in ice hockey (25 yrs playing 2-3 times/week until the last 3 years), college fencing (5 yrs Div 1), downhill skiing (about 18 hard yrs and lots of moguls), and serious martial arts (about 30 yrs). I feel fortunate to still be playing the sports I love and not have serious joint problems, although I think it will catch up to me later in life.

About 3 yrs ago, I had serious knee pain in both knees and could not play anything. After a visit with the doctor, it was determined to be an over-developed quad muscle. It pulled my knee cap off center when flexing my leg. After 3 months of therapy, all is fine except for the stiffness and some minor pain which is probably more age related now. The pain feels different than before.

For anyone taking glucosamine pills without any results, try a liquid form of it. I think it's better and easier to be absorbed into your body. It was for mine. Made a big difference. Also, try stretching and being as limber as possible. It's one of the important rules for staying physically young.

[Morale Officer]

I actually started having pain in high school (probably around 15 or 16). Turns out I had both knee caps permanently subluxed and had a huge tear in the cartiledge in my left knee. I ended up having surgery right out of high school and actually started fencing about 6 months later. I didn't have much trouble through college, but after working as an EMT I started having a lot more aches in both my knees. During Paramedic school I had a lot more pain and ended up seeing my Ortho again. After school, I had to have surgery on my right knee. Turns out because that knee was permanently subluxed (basically since high school) I had shreaded the cartiledge. I still get achey quite a bit, but to treat it I end up using Ibuprofen and BioFreeze in addition to stretching and cycling. I tried Glucosamine, but it didn't really work much and I found that taking 3 or 4 pills 3 or 4 times a day got a little expensive. The most effective management I've found is a stretching/excersize program that my massage therapist came up with. It seems to help, but when the weather changes (like with the massavie storms that came through today), there's not much that helps except a nice hot shower and somce chocolate (what...I'm a woman...I live on chocolate...especially dark chocolate! lol).

[Mac A. Bee]

...I end up using Ibuprofen and BioFreeze...tried Glucosamine...I live on chocolate...especially dark chocolate! lol).

Try standardized Arnica montana gel, introduced to me by one of our top Vet foilists. And make sure the chocolate is worth the calories. ;-)

[fatfencer]

I'm only half kidding.

Eat lots of spicy food. Something about those spices that keep the body lubricated.

The muscles around your joints should not be very tight at all. Keep them loos and flexible. The people who do that dont seem to have any joint problems. SOmething about all that tension just crushing the joints....not good.

Fatfencer

[Slacker]

Aw, man, another one who says eat cruciferous vegetables! Yuk.
I've had pain most of my fencing life. The worst is the beginners footwork pain. But that's a whole different type of pain than joint pain. When I was hit in the elbow by an epeeist two years ago it took ten months to get my arm back. I do wear an elbow brace; I do take a glucosamine chondroitin MSM supplement. I try to stay away from ibuprofen but will ice or massage after working out.

[Hauptman]

Has anyone else come across any research claiming that NSAIDs can actually inhibit healing.... especially for connective tissue like tendons and ligaments?

Personally, I swear by glucosamine and fish oil (although I prefer eating fish). I also use DHEA and melatonin.

[fencerbill]

I'm only half kidding.

Eat lots of spicy food. Something about those spices that keep the body lubricated.

The muscles around your joints should not be very tight at all. Keep them loos and flexible. The people who do that dont seem to have any joint problems. SOmething about all that tension just crushing the joints....not good.

Fatfencer

One of my stable, verily herd, of doctors recommended I try capsaicin ointment for my knees to avoid NSAIDs.

[crquack]

NSAIDs on a regular basis is asking for trouble. Inhibition of healing is probably the least of them.

Intermittent use in small doses is OK unless you are allergic or have other defined conditions.

I have been impressed by combination Ibuprofen and Acetaminophen - more effective than either on its own.

[Fencergrl]

stay away from ibuprofen but will ice or massage after working out.

Try taking a very small dose before working out, if you know you will be in pain. Reducing inflammation before it starts is much more effective than dealing with it afterwards.

[Inquartata]

For those of you who are old enough to actually have persistent joint aches or pain the morning after fencing, at what age did you start to notice it?

Alas, it was before Man developed the concept of counting, so I cannot say...

Actually my answer would be useless since first onset followed injuries in all cases.

[Sean Butler]

I'm a big fan of Flameout. It decreased my NSAID (Ibuprofen) use heavily.

For those on a budget, Flameout is a high-quality, souped-up fish oil - you should be able to get a lot of the benefits by finding something similar.

darius

Thanks for telling us about this product. I tried it and I am very impressed by how quickly it can begin reducing inflammation and pain in the joints. The stuff is a Godsend.

However, I tried the latter advice until my Flameout bottle arrived. I bought 2.5:1 DHA/EPA (same ratio used by Flameout) and I bought a large bottle of CLA. After taking these every day in roughly the same quantity as Flameout, I noticed absolutely no benefit at all. Then the Flameout arrived and in less than 12 hours after taking it, the inflammation reduction was VERY noticable. It could be that they simply use better oils, or maybe the ratio in the CLA was all wrong, who knows. But Flameout does work and I am thrilled.

I second the recommendation for flameout.

A lot of it also has to do with the stuff you eat.

Reducing the amount of carbohydrates (particularly lactose), goes a long way.

Reducing your intake of things you're allergic to (even mildly) also helps. A lot of people have a very mild and unnoticed reaction to peanut products. No hideous boils or suffocation, just increased levels of inflammation.

Tumeric, Flameout (or, around 40 grams of fish oil per day), and a lot of zinc.

The zinc goes a long way. A lot of people are zinc deficient. Get a bottle of zinc tally to test yourself.

I'm not really "Old", but I'm a fencer and a lifter. I'm always fighting inflammation.

Very good points about watching what you eat. The surest way to get joint problems is to eat things like fried foods. These counteract the good fatty acids like the omega-3s.

I have read that Turmeric was a good anti-inflammatory, but I haven't tried it. Zinc though, what's up with that? How does it help?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Thanks for telling us about this product. I tried it and I am very impressed by how quickly it can begin reducing inflammation and pain in the joints. The stuff is a Godsend.

However, I tried the latter advice until my Flameout bottle arrived. I bought 2.5:1 DHA/EPA (same ratio used by Flameout) and I bought a large bottle of CLA. After taking these every day in roughly the same quantity as Flameout, I noticed absolutely no benefit at all. Then the Flameout arrived and in less than 12 hours after taking it, the inflammation reduction was VERY noticable. It could be that they simply use better oils, or maybe the ratio in the CLA was all wrong, who knows. But Flameout does work and I am thrilled.

Here is the scoop on flame-out...

Normal fish oils contain DHA and EPA.

However, men require MUCH more DHA than women to attain the same anti-inflammatory affects. This is because DHA is inhibited by testosterone.

Flame-out is a fish oil blend that has a much higher ratio of DHA to EPA.

That is why it works so much better.

The CLA is a good additive to the mix, but the DHA is where the money is.

Some nutritionists (Charles Poliquin being the most prominent one that comes to mind), have reccomended up to 40-45 grams of fish oil per day.

Personally I've never used anything that high, but many who have report rapid fat loss and inflammation reduction.

Regarding the zinc, its a mineral that many people (especially athletes) are deficient in. It helps support healthy function of several glands, most notably the pituitary. It also plays a role in reducing prostatic hypertrophy (pretty much the only kind of hypertrophy I don't want!) .

More info on good ol Z.
http://www.advance-health.com/zinc.html

If I had to quit taking vitamin C or Zinc, I'd quit taking vitamin C. You can get all your C in an orange. Good luck trying to get all your zinc without a supplement.

[sheck]

Major props regarding Flame-out. The stuff is GREAT!