Parent support of fencer at tournament

[Phincer]

Rambler,

Good post.

You are one of us.

[lewis]

When my littlest (!) fencer was 8 he was the ONLY fencer in his age group and weapon at the NACs (and remember some of these kids had been fencing for 3 years by 10) who could completely dress himself in ALL his fencing gear and hook himself up. This was a tremendous source of pride and confidence to him and he still brings it up occasionally. This can be practiced at practice and is a worthwhile goal.

Your job as a parent at a tournament is still parental; more than simply handing out gatorade and extra wires. You are also there to remind him that you love him, that he is wonderful even if he dfls and that fencing is what he does, not who he is. Listen to the coach when he is coaching your kid (lessons, tournaments, classes); if he is telling your kid he sucks, he is an idiot or that he the coach is basically god and the rest of you are subjects, find a new coach.

I agree there are psycho parents, and assume from your posts that you are trying to avoid that. One way to avoid being one is not to invest more time and money than you can afford. Sounds obvious. It isn't easy not to get caught up in the fencing vortex. For example although it is true that good fencers can have an edge at good colleges, it is not simply the fact that they are good fencers; it is the personality and drive those fencers have in the rest of their lives that makes them good fencers and being a good fencer is only one way of showcasing those traits. There are others.

And I also wish that we had made different choices as a family, more time at the beach, more charity, more music and art.

Lewis

[Phincer]

For example although it is true that good fencers can have an edge at good colleges, it is not simply the fact that they are good fencers; it is the personality and drive those fencers have in the rest of their lives that makes them good fencers and being a good fencer is only one way of showcasing those traits. There are others.

#1 "other" traits = academics

Academics come first.

[journalmom]

First all, you are doing the right thing for your child. If you are not your child's advocate, then, who is? So don't worry about all these parents telling you "don't smother your child" and this is the ultimate .... don't "cup his testicles....". Continue to do what's right for your son. You should continue to learn and continue to be involved. I think you will know when to stay back. I think these parents have seen too many die hards and too much negative images of obsessive parents. So take their impressions with a grain of salt.

And congratulations on your son's first successful tournament - even the tough loss in the Y14's is an accomplishment at this stage in his fencing career. It's a learning experience that he'll accumulate as he goes forward. And trust me, it won't be his last loss either.

But to answer your real question.......in a nutshell...
besides the obvious of reading the Athlete's Manual...

To date, I have not found a good description of how the USFA organizes youth activities, so I am in the dark. What is a Junior Olympics? What is a Sectional? What is a National? So I am asking you all these types of questions to help educate me.

The reason you haven't found a good description of hos the USFA organizes youth activities is because there isn't any. But there is this website where you can check all the Regional Youth Competition (RYC) and Super Regional Competition (SYC) but of course, it's not updated to the current 2008-2009 year yet. But that site lists all the events for Youths. The mere attendance at RYC for Y10 and Y12 qualifies you for the Summer Nationals - the end of the year (or the beginning of the year for Cadet and Jr. categories) competition for all ages (Y10 - Sr.) and Rated (Div I through Div III). The Y14's have to qualify to attend Summer Nationals by getting points at SYC or North American Cup (NAC) events, twice a year in the Y14 category. And also there's a qualifier for Summer Nationals held in your division (more on that later) for Y14 and Cadet.

Cadet and Jr - there is the Jr. Olympics in February for this age category. It's a special event just for these two categories and it's the end of the season for these two ages - don't ask me why as I recently found out that Summer Nationals is actually the beginning of the season for this age group. I think it's something to do with qualifying for FIE competitions overseas in the Fall depending on points they receive at Summer Nationals. You don't have to worry about that for Y10 now but you should be aware of it so that in a few years, you may have to think about how involved you want him to be, including fencing overseas. Anyway, there are qualifiers for JO's but if you get points at NAC's, that'll qualify him too.

Division/Sectional - this is where your club or your residence is located. Your coach will tell you which division you are affiliated with and which section your division belongs to. All it is is how the regions are divided in each state/area. The divisions hold qualifiers for JO's and Y14 and Cadet (Under 16) qualifiers for Summer Nationals. The Section holds qualifiers for Jr. and Div 1A for Summer Nationals.

Check this link for NAC schedule for 2008. The qualifiers for the others are not listed yet. For local tournaments check askfred - the lifeline for all the local tournaments.

Don't worry about making a mistake (and you'll make plenty) because nothing will be life threatening. It can be fixed. You and your son will be fine. You already accomplished a lot. So, relax, and go do usual parenting thing. Enjoy the ride.

Just my two cents.......

[Rambler]

Journalmom, you are a sweetheart!

This is EXACTLY what I wanted to know. It is too confusing when you come into this sport, not really understanding the various categories. You helped me tremendously.

Basically, right now all I need to think about are local youth tournaments, RYC, Super Youth Circuits and Nationals.

Junior Olympics, Sectionals, qualifiers... all don't matter for Y12s. And I learned Monday from the coach that youth can't compete in open events, so that knocks those off my list.

Based on that, he doesn't have another chance to compete until December.
Good period of time to enjoy himself in class.

BTW, we looked at your journal last week when we were in the fencing.net shop. It looks very good and thorough, those a bit advanced for my son right now. He said he wanted to wait till he has done more tournaments and know what he wants to write.

Thanks.
Rambler

[Phincer]

Craig put the f.net parents manual download on the top of this board with a sticky. Another excellent resource. Thanks Craig! I'm always looking for it...

[journalmom]

You are welcome. I know what you are going through as I went through the same thing when we started. It was very confusing and I didn't know about f.net then. I asked the parents in the club and basically it was self taught. So, I've "been there, done that"

One thought occurred to me about your son's hands.......make sure the grip on his weapon is the right size. Although, since this was his first tournament, it's understandable that his hand would be hurting (he probably had to fence more than he ever did.) That's why going to tournaments are such a valuable lesson. I think my son's coach said once, one tournament can mean 10 lessons sometimes. I just wouldn't put him in more than one category at a time this early. He'll get tired and get cranky. There's also a danger of getting hurt when your body is fatigued.

Check his grip size though. There are many many styles out there and that gets confusing too. When my daughter was just starting out, I ordered Leon Paul XS grip (green) on line. She had better control with it than any other models. Good Luck!

[fencerwallet]

To date, I have not found a good description of how the USFA organizes youth activities, so I am in the dark. What is a Junior Olympics? What is a Sectional? What is a National? So I am asking you all these types of questions to help educate me.

As a parent, I think it is my duty to understand all of this and be able to help my son not get all caught up in some strive for Olympic glory. I hope you will not continue to take this desire to learn as an obsession to push my child. I am just trying to get guidance on all the options.

Rambler

Well, first of all, c'mon. Read the Athlete's Handbook, which is readily available for download from the USFA website. This has a great deal of the information you would require.

Second, everyone senses your enthusiasm, why be apologetic for it? While never overdo the "age-appropriateness" or "ability capability" of your kid's fencing (of which you may be guilty), I don't see anything wrong with healthy encouragement.

And finally, why can't a 10-year old kid, "...get all caught up in some strive for Olympic glory"? Hell, my kid frequently tells me, "if I try, it could happen, but if I don't try, it will never happen". (I don't know, maybe I should monitor what he watches on TV more closely).

[Rambler]

Thanks for the input. You are correct, the information was in the Athlete's handbook and I had overlooked it.
At 209 pages, I have to admit, I did not focus much on that book other than to understand the rules and penalties.

As a new parent, I focused on all the good "parent's guides" that are out there: Craig's at f.net, Purple Fencer's guide, the guide on USFA. None of these explained the organization.

And don't think that I am trying to dampen my son's enthusiasm. He too regularly tells us he wants to go to the 2016 Olympics in fencing and knows he could.

I want to understand enough about the sport to be able to be my son's advocate, but not his coach. I want to give him the chance to reach whatever goal he wants to set (as long as we can afford it!!), without setting them for him. But to do this you have to understand the environment and nature of a sport. You have to be informed.

I relate this to my daughter getting her driver's license. We did not know any of the laws related to this, but found our a week too late that she has to have taken a certain driving course before she can sit for her test. The class is offered only three times at her school, so she has to wait three more months. Had we know all the steps required, we would have paid more attention to this.

It is the same with fencing. Fortunately, we live close to a good club, with a dedicated coach that makes the sport interesting and enjoyable. But it is a one weapon club (Epee), and we knew nothing of the different weapons at the time he started. But other clubs train on all three weapons.

I have heard of another club in our city that charges $650 per month for lessons and training. I do not know the coach or the program. This seems expensive to me. But is it? Is that what it costs to be "Serious" about fencing? Do you have to practice everyday?

I use these questions rhetorically to show how there is such a diversity, but not as much of a support system as in other sports. In Soccer or Karate, there are 10 clubs within a 5 mile radius of our home. We all know multiple familes that we can ask about their experiences with this dojo or that league. You have more resources.

We have our Coach, who I question about something every time my son goes to practice, the other parents in the club, and now one other family that we know with fencers. But we are all part of the same club, so I don't get a perspective beyond that.

This forum, for me, is a great resource. How often can I ask a question and have parent's of Olympians share their experiences. I can see trying to email Michael Phelps' Mom right now.

So please put up with my naive questions. Point me to the places I should go to get the information. Be patient.

But remember also that I will bet at least 5 other newbees have the same questions and you are also helping all of them.
you may HATE the analogy, but you all are the Village that will raise my little fencer.

Rambler

[fencerwallet]

Do you have to practice everyday?

Er... at 10? At 10 my son played little league, fenced, played with his friends, did homework.

Now that he is older... he plays competitive baseball, fences, plays with his friends, and (begrudgingly) does his homework. He just won the role of Gaston in his school's Broadway version of, "Beauty and the Beast". He's very competitive and while he has had some relative success when it comes to fencing, he's still a kid. He could decide tomorrow that he wants to start a rock band.

If your kid wants to fence every day, why not. A physically healthy child is a good by-product. But my two cents (I'm going to shock some of you): Permettez-lui de mener la vie d'un enfant!

[dcmdale]

Thanks for the input. You are correct, the information was in the Athlete's handbook and I had overlooked it.
At 209 pages, I have to admit, I did not focus much on that book other than to understand the rules and penalties.

Others may disagree, but when I was in your shoes I found asking the community more informative than the Athlete's Handbook as well.

As a new parent, I focused on all the good "parent's guides" that are out there: Craig's at f.net, Purple Fencer's guide, the guide on USFA. None of these explained the organization.

In my experience, Craig is pretty good at responding to that kind of input. There is an expectation in fencing that your coach will help guide you through a lot of this because he is the one who can best evaluate how your kid is developing and what his development path should be.

And don't think that I am trying to dampen my son's enthusiasm. He too regularly tells us he wants to go to the 2016 Olympics in fencing and knows he could.

The goal of the Olympics motivates a lot of kids and, in fencing, it is not as out of reach as say, gymnastics. Even so, I think that parents should approach it with a sense of perspective. Becca, Mo's daughter, has had about as successful a fencing career as the most parent's wildest dreams could construct. Even with a phenom for a kid, though, it is a rough ride that should be approached with open eyes. Mo's posts to the parent's corner, along with some of T's writing, should be required reading for anyone setting out on that journey. It may not stop you, but it would make the decision to go forward better informed.

I want to understand enough about the sport to be able to be my son's advocate, but not his coach. I want to give him the chance to reach whatever goal he wants to set (as long as we can afford it!!), without setting them for him. But to do this you have to understand the environment and nature of a sport. You have to be informed.

Yes!

I have heard of another club in our city that charges $650 per month for lessons and training. I do not know the coach or the program. This seems expensive to me. But is it? Is that what it costs to be "Serious" about fencing? Do you have to practice everyday?

Prices vary greatly depending on where you are, how good the coach is, and how big his/her ego is.

$650/mo sounds excessive for training appropriate to a 10 year old, at least in clubs that we have been associated with, but it might give a sense of what you might be looking at paying down the road. Where I have seen fees that high, it included the coach's expected travel costs as part of the fee. With lower fees, you have to watch out for being dinged separately for out-of-area events. Every club is different that way.

You are completely right in understanding that your ability to pay can be as much a limitation on how far you go in fencing as your kids ability. A serious Y14/Cadet national level fencing habit can easily run $1,000-$1,500/mo. between equipment, coaching, entry fees, hotels, transportation, etc. When you start talking about flying your kid and a coach to Europe for the weekend, the money really starts flying out.

Everyday practice seems excessive at 10. The clubs we have been associated with generally wouldn't have let a 10 year old practice more than 2 days / week moving up to 4-5 days / week as they moved into Y-14 and were interested in more commitment. Rather than more days, I would expect to see private lessons (if you aren't already doing that) in conjunction with practice.

This forum, for me, is a great resource. How often can I ask a question and have parent's of Olympians share their experiences. I can see trying to email Michael Phelps' Mom right now.

So please put up with my naive questions. Point me to the places I should go to get the information. Be patient.

I think that *is* one of the main values of Parent's Corner.

[Rambler]

Thanks for the comments.
BTW, I have not intention of daily practice and have not heard of this for any child. It was just meant as the type of question one might have that has no experience with the sport.

But the thought of having to pay a coach to fly to Europe just scared me! Maybe I do want to be a Coach! Free trips to Europe! LOL

Rambler

[Allen Evans]

But the thought of having to pay a coach to fly to Europe just scared me! Maybe I do want to be a Coach! Free trips to Europe!

The "free" trips to Europe usually involve cheap seats on crowded planes, very long working days, bad food, and spectacular views of cheap hotel rooms and smelly gyms. Not exactly all it's cracked up to be.

Allen Evans

[OMCEPKEN]

Enjoy. Forget about videos and notes.
Be there, learn and cheer him on. Meet others and mingle. Let your kid hang out and make some friends.

[Old Fencer]

I was rather young when I started fencing on the national level and found the first event to be overwhelming. Not that I expect to win much, but rather the lack of comprehending the size and magnitude of the event. Things have grown rapidly since and I would suggest that the first event should be chalked up to the experience itself with little to no expectation of success.

As a Referee I was surprised at how ill prepared young fencers were for national events. Some did not know where to stand ready, some did not know that weapons were tested, most had no clue as to how score was kept and what a positive/negative indicated was. Spend the time to make sure they understand the structure of the event prior to arrival.

The best recommendation I’ve heard and agree with is to videotape the bouts. This will allow the fencer and coach to evaluate the child’s performance and analyze the areas requiring attention. I recorded my son’s football games and we still watch them today and cheer, laugh and even cry over the games.

[MdA]

... My fencing daughter just left for college. I can honestly say, if we had the entire fencing thing to do over, we wouldn't.
Keep it simple and in context.
The Momster

Give it a few years...I am sure you will all agree....it was a blast. You have flashburns right now from being too close to the fire....It will be fun again soon.

[MdA]

The "free" trips to Europe usually involve cheap seats on crowded planes, very long working days, bad food, and spectacular views of cheap hotel rooms and smelly gyms. Not exactly all it's cracked up to be.

Allen Evans

If your child qualifies to go to cadet designated events or JWCs...go with her/him until they can travel safely with other teamates or coaches that you know and trust. Enjoy the cheap seats, long days, great beer, sometimes bad food, and..all the other stuff. It won't last long...it goes by too fast...even with three kids....hopefully you can afford it in the current economy.

[lewis]

Enjoy. Forget about videos and notes.
Be there, learn and cheer him on. Meet others and mingle. Let your kid hang out and make some friends.

Those of you who do video - remember that one of the children in the video is not yours. Does the parent mind? Did you think to ask? Much better just to go and watch - make friends, let your kid make friends. The best help you can be is to keep score during the bouts - especially in the pools.

But if you do get into those higher eschelons beware of consensual child abuse. We tend to think of this in terms of gymnastics but it is also true in fencing. If your child's coach is insulting or demeaning to either your child or you get a new one. No coach, whatever his/her credentials has the right to reduce your child to tears, scream or swear at him/her. We have changed coaches a couple of times (I did not think it appropriate to have the coach calling my 9 yo an f---ing a with no talent who would never amount to anything and had another issue with a much more highly regarded coach who liked the 'no talent' one and thought the other one - older, more accomplished and much more serious - was a complete scrub despite some pretty decent results ) - Mo is right you do pay for speaking up and so does your child. But in the end they have the whole rest of their lives and you will have taught your child that self respect and dignity are important.

[Rathbone]

As a parent (more than a fencer ) I read this post with interest. Yes we are people , parents, children, first... fencers second. I only just finished a beginners class which was half children (elemntary school.) the remainder were teens and only two adults me being one of them.

Kudos to the parentss I have witnessed. Zip them up and let the coaches coach. Be there. Empower them. Not by instilling them with the "your the best rhetoric," but like Old Fencer said. Prepare them what to expect. If you are a non-fencing parent, that will mean researching on your own and passing the info along. Its the same as helping them with homework. You kind of have to read the chapter first!

Make sure they have what they need but make sure also that they accept some responsibility for that as well. They should believe its 100% while also knowing that "you're there for them." My humble opinion is, if it isnt fun for them, don;t do it. Whats the point?

There will be times of stress, and they might want to stay home and play xbox instead. Im not suggesting Leaving entirely up to them, but overall (big picture) you can sense if they like it. FEncing teaches great life lessons.

My son said to me, "Dad... you know those kids who are REALLY into it..." "Ya.", "Well, I don't want to be one of those kids." "OK" He plays basketball and baseball.

The two month course ended in a tourney. I enjoyed the parents spectating and not overstepping boundries as sometimes seen in baseball. Youve all read the stories.

Remember your their parent, not their coach (unless you are their coach lol).

I had a wonderful conversation at a tournament this weekend and we discussed how fencing is awesome becasue it gives opportunities to kids who might not just be suited for other youth sports. Hooray! As a parent recognize this (you probally already have).

As an adult who started fencing to bond with my son,I continued and as I said, he did not. The sport pyschologsit and I discussed how it is a good opportunity for adults and for similar reason. If I wanted to play football, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc., the opportunities are VERY limited. In my opinion, this almost creates THAT parent who participates in sporting vicariously THROUGH their sons and daughters. Congratulate yourself if your not one of them and keep up the good work. Yes, for you it probably is work. Its you child having all the fun!

Happy fencing!

[Mac A. Bee]

...Athlete's handbook...At 209 pages...I did not focus much on that book...my daughter getting her driver's license...found our a week too late that she has to have taken a certain driving course...Had we (my emphasis) know all the steps required...

As a referee, fencer and guest teacher, please enable your son to read the Athletes' Handbook and rules - if only the penalty chart. He's the fencer.