new ... with a few questions

[hulaz]

Okay, now I've finally joined these forums ... after lurking for a year. I'm female, 17, 2. year fencer, told to be fairly talented, foilist and almost too addicted to fencing already. I've enjoyed the advice (and the humour) you guys post. So keep up the good work. (:

Now, I've got two questions:
1) I have very little international experience, so I wonder where the limits usually are when it comes to arguing with the ref. It's possible (and common) around here, but it seems to different other places. If you disagree with a decision, what opportunities do you have as a fencer around the world? I'm asking more of concrete experience than theoretical stuff.

2) I've just got a small injury in my knee, loose ligaments (?) and something with my meniscus, and I can't lunge, so right now (and the month out) I can't fence at all. The question is - I might start out with a small competition, so does anybody have some ideas how I stay in shape and ready to fence, without actually fencing, doing normal footwork, running, stuff like that, for a month. Any advice? Any experience?

And my english sucks, and I know it ... If it is completely unreadable, let me know, and I'll attempt to write it differently.

[Fechter1]

1- Whenever you have a disagreement with the ref, don't expect to be able to change their mind. UNLESS it's a misapplied rule. Over here, that's pretty much the only (legal) way to change the call, and that usually requires the help of the TC. Arguing with the ref on matters of fact (whatever the ref saw is what happened, by definition) is a surefire way to alienate refs. Especially in a ROW weapon, that is not something you want to do...

This comes with the usual caveat that inexperienced refs might actually be swayed with arguments, but for your own development as well as the ref's development, arguing is usually a bad idea.

2- If you haven't yet - GO SEE A DOCTOR!!! about your knee problems. I simply cannot stress that enough. Follow the rehabilitation procedures they prescribe. THEN you can START thinking about competitions again. You might miss a few, but in the long run, you'll last longer (your knees, that is), and you'll be able to fence later in life.


And no, your english doesn't suck. You are actually more articulate than quite a few 'native' english speakers I have run across...

[TBean]

Arguing with the ref rarely gets you anywhere. Politely inquiring as to how the individual saw the fencing phrase and asking for clarifications where you thought your actions were clearer is allowable. This will help you determine what your referee is seeing and how you need to make your actions clearer, or change what you are doing based on the ref.

As for the other, do see a doctor and follow your rehabilitation orders. You can, if your coach will do it, try chair lessons for the month you cannot fence. This keeps your knee recovering but will help you stay in the game mentally. If your doctor says it will not harm your knee, inquire about swimming to keep your overall fitness level up. What you will need to do is hold something between your feet - my pool has a float for this to help you practice a dolphin kick - so you don't kick and just use your arms for laps.

Do not do anything that your doctor says no too - always check before you start to ensure that you do not set your rehab back.

[hulaz]

1) Okay . It's not usually succesful here either, they don't change their call, but that's another story. However, sometimes they seem to be more aware the rest of the bout, especially the inexperienced ones. I've never seen a ref around here who actually took any action against even the most argumentative fencers.
How is it in the US compared to other places?

2) I have. But first of all they can't agree, really. One told me I had to judge myself (in which case I'll probably fence), one told me to call him in some weeks, he wasn't sure if it would make it worse. I still don't know if I'm going to fence, and I won't fence if I don't feel I can. But I thought I'd prepare in some way if I should be ready.

Thanks

[hulaz]

[QUOTE=TBean;732813]Arguing with the ref rarely gets you anywhere. Politely inquiring as to how the individual saw the fencing phrase and asking for clarifications where you thought your actions were clearer is allowable. This will help you determine what your referee is seeing and how you need to make your actions clearer, or change what you are doing based on the ref.
QUOTE]

Ok. But how much do they tolerate in general? Is it also allowable to politely point out what you believe happened? Around here people do it all the time - (not always politely.).

Thanks for the advice - I thought about swimming too, it should be okay.

[Fechter1]

1)=2) I have. But first of all they can't agree, really. One told me I had to judge myself (in which case I'll probably fence), one told me to call him in some weeks, he wasn't sure if it would make it worse. I still don't know if I'm going to fence, and I won't fence if I don't feel I can. But I thought I'd prepare in some way if I should be ready.

Sounds like the doctors you saw didn't really know what they were talking about then... If you have pain in your knees, then you really should a) find out the reason and b) remedy the underlying cause.
I did not, and I am right now waiting for donor tissue for my second major open knee surgery of the year. Overall, IF I make it back to competition, I will have had to take almost 2 years to fix my knees (plus 3-4 years of diminished ability due to frequent pain). That's why I'm a little forceful on this subject. I would rather prevent others from having to go through my ordeal over the past few years.

[hulaz]

I thought so as well ... Especially one of them was hopeless. (The other agrees with me ). They did/do seem very hesitant when it comes to passing on clear information.

Ok, that sounds really annoying. I hope it all works out for you, and that you do make it back to competition, if that's what you want to.

[TBean]

[sed on the ref.

Ok. But how much do they tolerate in general? Is it also allowable to politely point out what you believe happened? Around here people do it all the time - (not always politely.).

Thanks for the advice - I thought about swimming too, it should be okay.

Totally depends on the ref. as to how much they will tolerate. Most people do not take well if you are argumentative off the bat, which is why I always stress asking nicely. If you do not the think the ref. was correct, after they have explained what they saw - you may ask (again nicely) was the phrase not xyz - presumably pointing out your view of the actions. WHEN they refute you again - let it go, and adjust.

So I have outlined, asking twice for clarification of actions. Much beyond that they are going to get annoyed with you. Use common sense, watch their body language and listen to the tone of voice when they address your questions - these will provide you with clues as to how far you can push.

Honestly, put yourself in their place. How would you like it if someone challenged every action you called and was rude about it. You might begin to lose patience with a fencer and find reasons to give a card.