Does a minute mean a minute?

[seven6ty]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

When I am doing little kids and one asks if there is time...

Uhhh... Que???

[seven6ty]

oops!

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

Uhhh... Que???

Black Card

Is that really your idea of humor?

[seven6ty]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Black Card

Is that really your idea of humor?

If true, I don't find it humorous, no. If taken out of context, yes. The fact that I actually have to explain this, even less funny.

[Redblade]

Originally Posted by Coldfire

I dont see the point in this. If both fencers feel they are ready to fence after 30 seconds, why not let them fence?

Simplest reason: Because the rules say "one minute," not less. It's not a big deal.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by damianip

However, calling the consistency foolish in light of the points raised above is a shaky position (unless you haven't considered them or you happen to be illiterate; are you using Dragon Naturally Speaking?).

or I disagree with them (or at least their application in this case).

Quoting Emerson will not help your argument here.

Quoting Emerson can never do anything but help an argument.

Remaining consistent in the application of the rules allows the fencers to have expectations and deal with them appropriately. I re-iterate that the first duty of the referee is to provide a safe and fair environment in which to compete.

I agree with this general principal, but disagree with your application of it to this particular triviality. Consistent application of the rules IS a good idea, but when that idea is taken to the extreme of not letting two fencers who are ready to fence begin fencing, it becomes a foolish consistency. Remember that the referee is there primarily to facilitate fencing. Telling two ready and willing fencers not to fence runs completely contrary to that. Do you similarly make sure everybody takes their full 10 minutes between bouts? If so, you're costing everybody at the tournament HOURS by the end of the day.

Allowing the fencers to agree to mutually "tweak" things is probably not a good idea,

again, in general correct but not really necessary to apply to this degree. I've managed to maintain very good order on my strip despite letting the fencers resume fencing whenever they both are ready.

nor is remaining slavish to the rulebook which I'm not advocating.

seems to be... as indicated by this:

However, in this case, it is clear by the rules that the fencers get one minute of rest so allow them that and standardize on it.

What is to be gained by shortening it?

1) you save time. if you save 30 seconds per bout (say 15 seconds in each break), by the end of the day you've probably saved a good 10 minutes.
2) you do a better job of facilitating fencing by, you know, allowing fencing to happen when they're both ready.

Paolo

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Redblade

Simplest reason: Because the rules say "one minute," not less. It's not a big deal.

exactly... it's not a big deal, so why not let them fence if they're ready?

-m

[Redblade]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

exactly... it's not a big deal, so why not let them fence if they're ready?

Because consistently following rules in any sport IS a big deal. Otherwise we might as well just ask each pair of opposing fencers how long they feel the bout should be - ignore the three-minute rule if they don't think it's important. Heck, they might not even feel they need a ref on hand. And as long as they both agree to keep their poking below the neck, there's not much reason to wear masks for the entire bout.

Have I taken this far enough to a ridiculous extreme?

This 10-second issue has received far more discussion time than one would think it deserves, neh?

[oso97]

Originally Posted by sanadika

I was just recently given this explanation when I was fencing and said I didnt need the one minute break. If it is not enforced you could have one fencer either direct or indirectly pressure another fencer not to take the break. For example say a New Fencer is fencing Mark the Magnificent Fencer and Mark says I dont need the break....looks at New Fencer and says ....Do you? New Fencer might feel pressured to not look like wimp and say no, even though they needed the break.

In which case, my response is, "grow up and get a pair, or don't compete with the big boys." As a referee, my job is NOT to keep fencers from doing stupid things that feed their own machismo. I have plenty of other duties, thank you .

Of course, the whole thing really becomes academic if you handle it right. You hit the button on the remote that says "Pause" or "Break" which starts a timer of 1 minute long. Then you go update the scoresheet (or check with the scorekeeper to make sure its all still good). Have a seat, or stand, but do so such that the fencers are in your sight. Make sure they have only one strip coach and keep one foot on the piste. When the clock dings, call them back to test. 95% of the time they will have already done so, and be ready for you. The rest of the time? A gentle reminder will do, not barking orders. If that doesn't work, try a throat clearing, or a slightly louder request. Make a little shooing gesture to the strip coach if you have to, accompanied by a smile.

"Speak softly, and carry a big stick." Or, to put it another way, the way to be comfortably in charge is to ACT like you're comfortably in charge. Save the card for if the fencer or strip coach mouths off to you in a deliberately disrespectful manner.

[dekko]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Don't forget using it for a commercial break....

-B

This is true. You have to wait for the guy with the big orange oven mits to get off the strip before you can continue.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Redblade

Because consistently following rules in any sport IS a big deal. Otherwise we might as well just ask each pair of opposing fencers how long they feel the bout should be - ignore the three-minute rule if they don't think it's important. Heck, they might not even feel they need a ref on hand. And as long as they both agree to keep their poking below the neck, there's not much reason to wear masks for the entire bout.

Have I taken this far enough to a ridiculous extreme?

This 10-second issue has received far more discussion time than one would think it deserves, neh?

I'm very consistent in my application of this rule: Everybody is entitled to their minute, but if both fencers are ready before then, great.

-m

[Empty Wallet]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Certainly possible and, I agree, necessary. But it shouldn't be nap time. Minimal but some attention. .

My son recently played a fotball game. Instead of parents reffing (one from each side is the norm) we had a ref supplied by the league.

Half time comes and goes. Kids are in position, coaches in place. All the parent officials waiting to do what they are supposed to.

No ref.

Search rooms, check the bathrooms. Announcement made (only ground with a speaker system). Everyone worried because he is an old guy and we knew he had previously had a stroke.

Home team officials starts searching carpark. There is the ref, fast asleep in his car.

Had the presence of mind to wave to the crowd in response to the "cheers" he got when he finally made it onto the ground 10 minutes late.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Redblade

The short descriptions given throughout the Athlete Handbook (beginning with "Competition Format" at 2.10.4) use the verbs "is" and "are." Ditto with the Operations Manual. No hint that the rest period lengths are optionally shorter than a minute, might be, could be, should be, depending on whether the fencers agree to a shorter break. ... Just one minute.

To quote a famous ex-President, it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is.

Originally Posted by damianip

One minute rest means one minute rest, not a one minute interval wherein rest may be taken.

So, do you card the fencers if they use the break to bounce or stretch or run in place to keep warm? Because clearly they are not resting...

( Actually, the rule says "pause", not "rest". )

As a fencer, I always insist on it. As a referee, I insist that the interval last a minimum of one minute, no matter how willing the fencers are to start.

Eh...does the rule say 'minimum'?

And if the fencers are not quite ready when that 1 minute clock expires, clearly they have taken more than a minute to rest. Cards?

Originally Posted by Redblade

Simplest reason: Because the rules say "one minute," not less.

And not more, either.

How do you time it so they only get exactly the minute they are allowed?

If you make them get en guard in time to start the second period exactly when the minute clock expires, you've "robbed" them of a few of their seconds of rest. If you only call and end to the rest when the minute timer expires and they dawdle getting en guard, they've gotten too much rest...

Face it, "minute" is fungible. It has to be.

And BTW, what about all the other "exact" numbers in the rules. Do we insist on exactly 10 minutes of rest between bouts? Even when a fencer is doing 2 events and shuttling between strips?

Do we insist that a fencer with an injury take all of his permitted time, even if he's OK after 6?

If a strip is 2 meters and 1 millimeter wide, we can't use it, right? Because the rules clearly say 1.5 to 2 meters, not an iota more or less.

Come on, folks. This is not consistency, this is anal retentiveness...

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Do we insist that a fencer with an injury take all of his permitted time, even if he's OK after 6?

Injury time (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by USFencing Rulebook

For an accident which occurs in the course of a bout and which is
properly attested by the delegate of the FIE Medical Committee or
by the doctor on duty, the Referee will allow a break in the bout
lasting no longer than 10 minutes.

-B