Does a minute mean a minute?

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by peet

Sometimes it is nice to sit down for all 60 seconds. A ref might have a nice little sit-down and still keep an eye on things.

Ref'ing for 12-15 hours in a day can be hell on the feet if you don't sit down as much as possible.

-p

Certainly possible and, I agree, necessary. But it shouldn't be nap time. Minimal but some attention. Keeping them on the strip and away from the fencing bag is a first step to foil the swindlers.

Another good thing is to annotate the score sheet with the score at break. I usually draw vertical lines or x each highest touch and draw a line to them. If you ever have to try to reconstruct, any little bit helps.

[Guymelef]

Originally Posted by Empty Wallet

As indicated, I have seen refs sit, have a drink. I have even seen them go over to other strips and chat with other refs. All in the 1 minute break.

Relaxed atmosphere and drink service on strip, I want that gig!

Seriously though, this is a case of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. The refs are duty-bound to keep fencing moving in an efficient manner. It's all about processing. The fencers want to take their time, refocus, fidget, whatever. With all the little rituals I've seen fencers do they're beginning to look like major league batters and pitchers. It is small wonder MLB keeps discussing play clocks.

For me a minute means a minute and I'm going to say "On guard" when the chronometer hits triple zero. It's the same de facto process as the ten minute break between DEs. It is not really ten minutes to wander around it's really more like 7.5. Fencers are called hooked-up, and tested in that remaining time. Again, when the clock strikes 10:00 I'm saying "On guard...Ready."

[Redblade]

Originally Posted by Guymelef

For me a minute means a minute and I'm going to say "On guard" when the chronometer hits triple zero. It's the same de facto process as the ten minute break between DEs. It is not really ten minutes to wander around it's really more like 7.5. Fencers are called hooked-up, and tested in that remaining time. Again, when the clock strikes 10:00 I'm saying "On guard...Ready."

This helps clarify the issue by raising the question of who "owns" the break, so to speak. Does the ref have a right require weapons testing (for example) during the one-minute break, or must he wait until the full 60 seconds have elapsed before bringing the fencers to the en guarde line?

Ultimately, though, it doesn't really matter. We're talking about a difference of few seconds. Anyone who's making a big fuss about it -- fencers or refs -- probably needs meditation practice or professional counseling.

[CurtM]

Originally Posted by Redblade

This helps clarify the issue by raising the question of who "owns" the break, so to speak. Does the ref have a right require weapons testing (for example) during the one-minute break, or must he wait until the full 60 seconds have elapsed before bringing the fencers to the en guarde line?

I think, just like in determining right of way in an action, the ref's perspective is reality. Arguing won't help and could very well hurt, and like you said, we're talking about a couple of seconds.

[damianip]

One minute rest means one minute rest, not a one minute interval wherein rest may be taken.

As a fencer, I always insist on it. As a referee, I insist that the interval last a minimum of one minute, no matter how willing the fencers are to start.

The quote below is from the rulebook and, for once, there's no ambiguity: it's one minute of rest.

o.23 The direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, maximum 9
minutes, divided into three periods of three minutes, with a one
minute rest between each period. As an exception, at saber, the
first period ends either at the expiry of the three minutes or when
one of the fencers has scored eight touches. During this rest a
person, named before the bout, may have access to the fencer.
A clock, incorporated into the electrical scoring apparatus, blocks
the latter at the end of each period

and somewhat less clear, but still leaning towards clarity:

o.26 In each round of the direct elimination table (256, 128, 64, 32,
16, 8 or 4), the bouts are always called in the order of the bout
plan, starting at the top and ending at the bottom.
This rule must also be applied for each quarter of the table, when
the direct elimination is taking place simultaneously on 4 or 8
strips.
A fencer must always be allowed a rest period of ten minutes
between two consecutive bouts.

Paolo

[Guymelef]

I'd say the ref owns the break. T.35(i) bears this out with the referee 'maintaining order.' Of course this varies by the ref. Some are hard-core and some are easy-going.

If you are moving up the ranks like me, it behooves you to be hard-core about time. Strip management and time management are among the criteria for observation. At the same time you've got to be affable about it. The FOC doesn't want the DI from Full Metal Jacket out there; although that might be a good counter to some of the parents and coaches

[damianip]

I don't see that as carte blanche to deny a fencer his or her full allotment of rest.

Since it is explicitly granted to the fencer, it can't be taken away.

Some very established referees are a bit over zealous in maintaining order. they act like you are privileged to be fencing on their strip.

Let's not forget the fact that many refs, no matter their rating or experience feel that they own the option of re-interpreting any rule.

Remember, a referee's primary purpose is to provide a safe and fair bout for the fencers, not exercise authority to appease their own egos.

Paolo

[KD5MDK]

I do not see enforcing the break as lasting the entire minute if both fencers wish to begin fencing as a demonstration of skill or anything else by the referee. If the referee wants the time, that's fine. If the referee insists on the time because of the rules... I'm not impressed.

[seven6ty]

Thanks for that reminder, Damian.

My biggest pet peeve is refs who begin to say en guard and ask if you're ready, when you're either not even back to your en guard line yet, or are *obviously* not ready, ie re-zipping your jacket, have your mask raised, straightening your blade, pulling your bodycord, etc. And not just once, but after *every* touch. Grrrr.

[Coldfire]

Originally Posted by damianip

As a referee, I insist that the interval last a minimum of one minute, no matter how willing the fencers are to start.

I dont see the point in this. If both fencers feel they are ready to fence after 30 seconds, why not let them fence?

[damianip]

Originally Posted by Coldfire

I dont see the point in this. If both fencers feel they are ready to fence after 30 seconds, why not let them fence?

A few reasons:

• I might need the rest.
• One or both of the fencers may not think they need it now, but they might want it later or wished they had if they lost the bout.
• Consistency.

Paolo

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

My biggest pet peeve is refs who begin to say en guard and ask if your ready, when you're either not even back to your en guard line yet, or are *obviously* not ready, ie putting your jacket on,

Under what circumstances would you be putting your jacket on when the referee calls you en guard?

[sanadika]

I was just recently given this explanation when I was fencing and said I didnt need the one minute break. If it is not enforced you could have one fencer either direct or indirectly pressure another fencer not to take the break. For example say a New Fencer is fencing Mark the Magnificent Fencer and Mark says I dont need the break....looks at New Fencer and says ....Do you? New Fencer might feel pressured to not look like wimp and say no, even though they needed the break.

[Guymelef]

Paolo (damian) has got good points. I always say "take a break" or "take sixty" between the encounters. If one of the fencers says he does not need it, I still encourage him to take it. To take the argument further, it saves from revisionist history later on. Meaning when that fencer who waved the break and loses starts whining that the break would have made all the difference.

Adding a further wrinkle to this debate are the strip coaches. I wave them off at the 50 second mark (counting up to 60 of course). If I don't then the break can conceivably go 70 or 80 seconds.

Ultimately this debate is a lot like speed limits. A cop is not going to pull you over for going over the posted by 1-5 mph. If fencing does not begin until say 60+2, I don't think a ref will lose his job or rating for it. Again, referees have got to be affable.

[seven6ty]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Under what circumstances would you be putting your jacket on when the referee calls you en guard?

Under no circumstances would I be putting my jacket on, while coming en guard. I would, however, be checking the top of the zipper and the velcro on my jacket's collar, as it will tend to come undone while I am fencing, and I like to make sure that all of my gear is in proper order the next time I return to en guard and begin another fencing encounter.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by damianip

A few reasons:

• I might need the rest.
• One or both of the fencers may not think they need it now, but they might want it later or wished they had if they lost the bout.
• Consistency.

Paolo

In the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

There is no point to forcing the fencers to take a full minute.

-m

[damianip]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

In the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

There is no point to forcing the fencers to take a full minute.

-m

So you say, but your point depends on whether of not the consistency is foolish.

However, calling the consistency foolish in light of the points raised above is a shaky position (unless you haven't considered them or you happen to be illiterate; are you using Dragon Naturally Speaking?).

Quoting Emerson will not help your argument here.

Remaining consistent in the application of the rules allows the fencers to have expectations and deal with them appropriately. I re-iterate that the first duty of the referee is to provide a safe and fair environment in which to compete.

Allowing the fencers to agree to mutually "tweak" things is probably not a good idea, nor is remaining slavish to the rulebook which I'm not advocating.

However, in this case, it is clear by the rules that the fencers get one minute of rest so allow them that and standardize on it.

What is to be gained by shortening it?

Paolo

[Cookeit]

Originally Posted by wwalkerjr

As long as you keep at least one foot on the strip.

What if you have go to peepee during the bout?
What if you can make it to the bathroom and back in under a minute?

:O

I can see it now...
"Nah, that's just yellow crotch sweat."

[Bryn Ralph]

The original question is purely academic in one sense and merely rhetorical in another sense.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

What if you have go to peepee during the bout?
What if you can make it to the bathroom and back in under a minute?

:O

I can see it now...
"Nah, that's just yellow crotch sweat."

That's what the 10 minutes between bouts is for, for at least the fencers who don't have a medical problem.

If a fencer has a medical problem and discusses it beforehand with the referee, who is going to say no?

When I am doing little kids and one asks if there is time (before pool or DE) to go to the john, I tell them there is always time to go to the john.

No "yellow crotch sweat" on my strip. Ew!