Referee FAQ

[oiuyt]

From the hand-judging thread:

Perhaps start a new thread for questions. If we get 8-12 (or more) I'll work on getting official answers, pulling it together, and getting it posted.

Some questions will be hard to answer, especially in a text medium, and don't lend themselves to a FAQ format.

Questions such as:

• If a fencer requests side judges is the referee obligated to grant that request?
• What rights does a fencer have if s/he believes the referee is not capable of handling the current bout?
• What is the correct procedure for testing a potentially faulty weapon when presented to the referee during the course of a bout?
• What is the correct procedure for testing a weapon at the start of a bout?
• What is correct referee attire?
• How do I become a referee?
• How do I get better as a referee?
• What's the difference between a referee and a judge and what does each do?
• When a referee is being observed what can the observer do?
• I have a new, trainee referee on my strip. Can I appeal to the observer to change his/her calls? To replace him/her?

Some of these already have official answers published in easily-accessible locations (referee attire, how to become a referee, etc.).

What else should be asked (and answered)? Suggestions of modifications to some of the questions I've listed here?

-B

[Mr Epee]

- When do referees get paid?

- My fellow referee smells like old booze. Who should I notify?

- Same as above, but (s)he has a rating higher than three. Is this a different case?

- The referee handbook says it's unethical to accept an assignment that I am not mentally/physically prepared to handle professionally. My notebook indicates that I've worked 118 pool bouts and 12 DE's today. I'm exhausted, my brain feels like a tube sock full of oatmeal, and the BC is trying to assign me to a different weapon. I explained that there was no ethical way I could possibly accept the new assignment. The nice lady at the BC said "tough titties", and gestured towards a cartoon of Garfield explaining that he's "Not a People Person". How can I best serve the fencers... each of whom paid an entry fee higher than what I hope to be paid (some day) for volunteering to work this event?

- Now I smell like old booze. How can I best cover it up so that the kids, or their parents, don't notice?

[Peach]

***- My fellow referee smells like old booze. Who should I notify?
***- Same as above, but (s)he has a rating higher than three. Is this a different case?
***- Now I smell like old booze. How can I best cover it up so that the kids, or their parents, don't notice?

1. Notify your fellow referee that he needs to get help, and tell the head referee. Anything else is enabling and continuing a possibly dangerous situation.
2. Notify the head referee OR another referee with a rating higher than three that your fellow referee needs to get help, and is endangering himself and likely to cause litigation that will have to be settled in an expensive way.
3. Get help. If you smell like old booze you have a problem that isn't refereeing.

Easy answers

As for being told to referee when you are incapable, YMMV, but I stopped refereeing. My real job is impossible enough.

[SEM Fencer]

What if, as a referree who is not highly rated enough to be an observer, you are just casually watching some bouts and seeing egregious errors on the part of an even more junior referee, maybe trying to get a rating in their second or third weapon...This person may have an observer that is also babysitting three others in a pod, and is missing what's going on...

What's your responsibility here? Keep in mind, you are a nobody, too, who might just have a little better handle on this particular weapon or more experienced.

Do you:
*Go to the podmaster (cause if you do that, then you are suggesting that the podmaster might not be capable of controlling the pod, earning lots of good will there)
*Go to the bout committee (see the first, and in addition, now you are questioning the judgement of the people who have the power to stick you in y10 women's anything...for the rest of your life...)
*Watch the poor bastard be eaten alive by the coaches, parents, teammates, etc. (and empathize with everyone, especially the fencer who is being screwed, not intentionally)
*Help the ref on your own (and overstep the boundaries of your lowly 5, which may or may not be observed by, and taken offense by the above mentioned podmaster, bout committee, assigners, etc., again causing banishment to the squishy realms)?

[fencerbill]

Perhaps, when you get to it, a better title would be

Refereeing FAQ.

It's not just for referees. Note, this could be its own section on the FOC website. Having it be part of the Refereeing Manual might hinder some fencers from getting to it.

[fencerbill]

What if, as a referree who is not highly rated enough to be an observer, you are just casually watching some bouts and seeing egregious errors on the part of an even more junior referee, maybe trying to get a rating in their second or third weapon...This person may have an observer that is also babysitting three others in a pod, and is missing what's going on...

What's your responsibility here? Keep in mind, you are a nobody, too, who might just have a little better handle on this particular weapon or more experienced.

Do you:
*Go to the podmaster (cause if you do that, then you are suggesting that the podmaster might not be capable of controlling the pod, earning lots of good will there)
*Go to the bout committee (see the first, and in addition, now you are questioning the judgement of the people who have the power to stick you in y10 women's anything...for the rest of your life...)
*Watch the poor bastard be eaten alive by the coaches, parents, teammates, etc. (and empathize with everyone, especially the fencer who is being screwed, not intentionally)
*Help the ref on your own (and overstep the boundaries of your lowly 5, which may or may not be observed by, and taken offense by the above mentioned podmaster, bout committee, assigners, etc., again causing banishment to the squishy realms)?

You should worry about what's better for fencing, not about protecting your a$$.

[oiuyt]

Perhaps, when you get to it, a better title would be

Refereeing FAQ.

It's not just for referees. Note, this could be its own section on the FOC website. Having it be part of the Refereeing Manual might hinder some fencers from getting to it.

Good suggestions. I was envisioning it as a separate document.

-B

[erooMynohtnA]

• If you blow a call and realize it immediately after, what do you do?
• If an already underway bout is clearly beyond your skill level, what do you do?
• If a fencer appeals a ruling of fact (attack, counterattack call), what do you do? (eg card them immediately, go to the BC and then card them, or just tell them they can't appeal that)
• If a fencer is found to not be wearing a piece of safety equipment in the middle of a bout, what do you do?
• Is the inside or the outisde of the tape on the floor the boundary of the strip?
• What do you do if a coach is giving you lip?
• What do you do if a fencer is giving you lip?
• What do you do if the crowd is getting rowdy?
• What do you do in the case of an injury timeout if there are no medical personnel present?
• What is the role of the referee if a serious injury occurs?
• What do you do if the fencers remember a different score than you do? What do you do if they both remember different scores from eachother too?
• What are the rights of the fencer concerning disruption? Can they ask you to tell a screaming coach/mother/audience to be quiet?

My questions might not be frequently asked, but they're mostly situations I see come up a lot.

[Guymelef]

SEM,

Don't be paralyzed about what might happen. The difference between a 5 and a 4 is leadership and initiative. Referees are a family, a cadre, a corps and we've got to help each other out. First, go up to the ref during a natural break and offer to help out. Take the remote or something. During natural breaks give him or her encouragement and maybe some coded advice.

If this is a major problem, go to the podmaster. Podmasters can miss things, after all they have got three or four strips to worry about and these might be spread over two enclosures.

I was reffing my first SNs a two years back and I was just grinding down. I was getting tired and started worrying about my calls. In the meantime the remote was also losing power. I was having to run from the middle of the strip where the remote functioned to the middle of the fencing action, further tiring me out. A ref saw my distress, saw that I was tiring and starting to lose my cool, and came over to help. Okay, granted it was Charles Astudillo who has loads of seniority, but you see my point. I am grateful to him to this day. I think he saved me from having a stroke

[fencerbill]

Do you call halt when any of the foot is off the strip or when all of the foot is off the strip.

I believe I have heard different referees say both alternatives above. Sounds like something the FOC could take a position on. Or maybe they couldn't.

[notalent]

Do you call halt when any of the foot is off the strip or when all of the foot is off the strip.

I believe I have heard different referees say both alternatives above. Sounds like something the FOC could take a position on. Or maybe they couldn't.

Only one person on the FOC indicated that any part of the foot was off, the consensus is all of the foot

[bigdawg2121]

SEM,

No one is going to care that you let them know that someone was doing a subpar job, is in over their head, or is having an off day. The podmaster often misses things. The head referee is often at a table far away. If you notice something, go tell someone. Go talk to the other ref. Everyone will thank you b/c you'll either make the situation better and diffuse a potentially unpleasant time for all or you'll at least make everyone aware that unpleasantness could be up ahead (we all like a little warning).

[notalent]

• If you blow a call and realize it immediately after, what do you do?
• If an already underway bout is clearly beyond your skill level, what do you do?
• If a fencer appeals a ruling of fact (attack, counterattack call), what do you do? (eg card them immediately, go to the BC and then card them, or just tell them they can't appeal that)
• If a fencer is found to not be wearing a piece of safety equipment in the middle of a bout, what do you do?
• Is the inside or the outisde of the tape on the floor the boundary of the strip?
• What do you do if a coach is giving you lip?
• What do you do if a fencer is giving you lip?
• What do you do if the crowd is getting rowdy?
• What do you do in the case of an injury timeout if there are no medical personnel present?
• What is the role of the referee if a serious injury occurs?
• What do you do if the fencers remember a different score than you do? What do you do if they both remember different scores from eachother too?
• What are the rights of the fencer concerning disruption? Can they ask you to tell a screaming coach/mother/audience to be quiet?

My questions might not be frequently asked, but they're mostly situations I see come up a lot.

The short answer for alot of these is Card them.
With no medical personel you have decide if they get the break.
The first 2 are tough because reversing a call is a sure way to have a melt down by someone, and while pulling your self is the best thing for the fencers they often dont see it that way. One of the ways to get better though is to do things that push your limits.
You are the final keeper of the score, so without some outside official (score keeper, second ref) what you say goes.
If a fencer complains about a spectator the spectator gets quiet or leaves the area.
For that matter if yelling on another strip is bothering you, you can card for that aswell. Some years ago I was reffing at a youth meet in San Diego and a coach who is also a high level ref was melting down on a ref behind me. This went on for a few minutes, at which point I turned around and carded him for disturbing order on my strip. He sat down and started working on his cigar rather viggerously

[bbugiii]

What do you do if you are in the crowd watching and the ref is not keeping score via machine or paper and they mess up the score and neither fencer notices?

What is the proper way for someone in the crowd to let the ref know a cord has come loose if the ref or fencers have not noticed it?

[akk2128]

What is the proper way for someone in the crowd to let the ref know a cord has come loose if the ref or fencers have not noticed it?

I saw this happen at a high school meet once. The opposing team's sabre fencer had his lame unclip in the middle of a bout. I immediately tried to get the ref's attention to alert him. He didn't acknowledge me until after the touch was over, and even then he allowed the previous touch to count despite the fact that it was scored by the fencer who didn't have his lame clipped.

[fdad]

What is the appropriate way for a fencer to ask for an explanation of a call?

Recently my kid was in a bout, what was to me and my kid an obvious parry/riposte, was called for the other fencer without explanation. My kid asked if it wasn't a parry/rispote? and the referee said parry/riposte for the other fencer. This same scenario happened three times in the bout. Each time the other kid made an simple attack from en guarde, which was parried, the other kids remise landed and so did my kid's riposte. My kid gave up asking for an explanation after the first time.

A couple of things, my kid was overmatched, and wasn't likely to win this bout anyway - and by the time this incident occured the first time it was obvious. My feeling was the referee had decided that the quickest way to get to the end of this bout near the end of a long day was to award the inevitable winner of the bout with the touch whenever there were two lights. The only touches my kid got awarded were one light.

In this case I wonder whether a follow up question like - where did the attack come from - is allowed? What are the limits of interrogation? I've heard stories of red cards for fencers for loud sighs and doubletake second looks. I want to make sure my kid learns the proper, respectful way to make sure the rules as the referee is interpreting them are understood.

At the end the director tried to get both kids to sign an incorrectly lopsided score sheet but the other kid noticed and made him fix it before my kid was asked to sign. My kid was more upset about the unnecessarily lopsided scoresheet than the fact that the referee wasn't explaining the action or giving proper credit for ripostes

[fencerbill]

I saw this happen at a high school meet once. The opposing team's sabre fencer had his lame unclip in the middle of a bout. I immediately tried to get the ref's attention to alert him. He didn't acknowledge me until after the touch was over, and even then he allowed the previous touch to count despite the fact that it was scored by the fencer who didn't have his lame clipped.

How loud can you yell "mask cord"?

[tchwojko]

Along with the FAQ we need something like Snopes for mythical fencing rules that somehow get propagated. Fnopes?

[akk2128]

How loud can you yell "mask cord"?

It wasn't the mask cord though, it was the clip from his body cord to his lame. I was yelling pretty loud because I was witnessing my teammate losing point(s) that he should not be losing.

[erooMynohtnA]

It wasn't the mask cord though, it was the clip from his body cord to his lame. I was yelling pretty loud because I was witnessing my teammate losing point(s) that he should not be losing.

I would have ejected you from the venue for disturbing order on the strip. :P