Referee FAQ

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by akk2128

It wasn't the mask cord though, it was the clip from his body cord to his lame. I was yelling pretty loud because I was witnessing my teammate losing point(s) that he should not be losing.

I would have been yelling "Test"! Then he could have gotten a touch back. Or at least should have gotten the touch back.

[peet]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I would have been yelling "Test"! Then he could have gotten a touch back. Or at least should have gotten the touch back.

An excellent idea, as long as there's been no fencing since that last touch.

-p

[Mac A. Bee]

Originally Posted by fdad

What is the appropriate way for a fencer to ask for an explanation of a call?...I wonder whether a follow up question like - where did the attack come from - is allowed?...I want to make sure my kid learns the proper, respectful way to make sure the rules as the referee is interpreting them are understood...the director tried to get both kids to sign an incorrectly lopsided score sheet

You son may ask for a call to be repeated - without eye roll or attitude. We have been instructed to repeat phrase analysis without elaboration. That said, I have heard 1-rated refs add a bit of explanation to top-classified fencers. If your son parried and the ref didn't see or hear it, then it's up to your son to adapt. He may not appeal a fact, only incorrect rule interpretation or application.

It's imperative for your son to read the rules. Many younger fencers don't leading to unjustifiable appeals - a cardable offense. Even better would be for him to study and sit for the ref exam. Then he'd *really* know.

I don't understand "lopsided score sheet." As long as the scores are correctly entered then it is acceptable. New since Summer Nationals is not requiring refs to compute indicators, i.e. totaling touches made, received and their difference.

[fdad]

Originally Posted by Mac A. Bee

You son may ask for a call to be repeated - without eye roll or attitude. We have been instructed to repeat phrase analysis without elaboration. That said, I have heard 1-rated refs add a bit of explanation to top-classified fencers. If your son parried and the ref didn't see or hear it, then it's up to your son to adapt. He may not appeal a fact, only incorrect rule interpretation or application.

Well the issue is that the initial "phrase analysis" consisted of the director putting up his arm on the side of the other fencer and updating the score. When my kid asked for a description of the action. It was "his parry-ripose" (his meaning the other fencer). Now the fact that there was one obvious attacker (the other kid), followed by my kid parrying, followed by both fencers landing touches simultaneously - makes me feel like getting the referee to acknowledge where the attack initiated, might have led him to realize the countradiction inherent in his call (attack from left, parry from left, risposte from left, no other attack? what was parried?), and headed off the same thing from happening two more times in the bout.

Originally Posted by Mac A. Bee

It's imperative for your son to read the rules. Many younger fencers don't leading to unjustifiable appeals - a cardable offense. Even better would be for him to study and sit for the ref exam. Then he'd *really* know.

The rules are clear about what is supposed to happen in many cases - but unclear about how to proceed when what is supposed to happen does not.

Originally Posted by Mac A. Bee

I don't understand "lopsided score sheet." As long as the scores are correctly entered then it is acceptable. New since Summer Nationals is not requiring refs to compute indicators, i.e. totaling touches made, received and their difference.

An example of what I meant by lopsided was - bout was 10-15, scoresheet was 5-15.

[Guymelef]

fdad,

The unexplained action is reason enough to go to the bout committe and ask for the referee to be observed. By not reconstructing the phrase he is in violation of T.42. Given the many problems with this single ref you or your son should take note of his name and report this to the bout committee.

There are bad referees out there. It is the duty of both spectators and other referees to keep eyes open and weed out the non-hackers. I was off duty once at a SN, waiting for the bus back to the hotel and was approached by a very upset family. Their daughter had just been eliminated on a red card that was thrown at her, sight unseen. I don't remember the details, but based on their story it was an unfair card and the violation was not actually seen by the ref. They were, of course, very upset. It was a bitterness that could have made them give up on the sport entirely. I talked with them about it and told them that they should read the rules, because it is the constitution of our sport.

Referees are basically customer service, because all fencers and parents are paying patrons and the raison d'etre of the sport. Unfortunately, that message can be lost or ignored. Whether it is through malice or not is hard to say. Nevertheless, we have to go by empirical evidence and that ref hurt your son the fencer and fencing in general.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by Guymelef

It was a bitterness that could have made them give up on the sport entirely.

This argument always bothers me a bit. It could be true, but in ANY activity there are bad or inept refs, officials, parents, etc. If a single bad referee or bad tournament would drive away a person from an activity, then I'm not sure how long they'd last anyway.

Now, if it's a consistently bad experience, then there's a systemic problem...

[keith]

Originally Posted by fdad

Well the issue is that the initial "phrase analysis" consisted of the director putting up his arm on the side of the other fencer and updating the score. When my kid asked for a description of the action. It was "his parry-ripose" (his meaning the other fencer). Now the fact that there was one obvious attacker (the other kid), followed by my kid parrying, followed by both fencers landing touches simultaneously - makes me feel like getting the referee to acknowledge where the attack initiated, might have led him to realize the countradiction inherent in his call (attack from left, parry from left, risposte from left, no other attack? what was parried?), and headed off the same thing from happening two more times in the bout.

I believe you provided an answer for all this in your first post;

Originally Posted by fdad

............ my kid was overmatched, and wasn't likely to win this bout anyway..............

[fdad]

Originally Posted by Guymelef

The unexplained action is reason enough to go to the bout committe and ask for the referee to be observed. By not reconstructing the phrase he is in violation of T.42. Given the many problems with this single ref you or your son should take note of his name and report this to the bout committee.

What is the appropriate way for a fencer to ask for this (observation by the bout committee)? (I would prefer for my kid to learn to be self sufficient and not rely on me or another spectator to run to the bout committee)

Originally Posted by Guymelef

Referees are basically customer service, because all fencers and parents are paying patrons and the raison d'etre of the sport. Unfortunately, that message can be lost or ignored. Whether it is through malice or not is hard to say. Nevertheless, we have to go by empirical evidence and that ref hurt your son the fencer and fencing in general.

In all fairness to the referees at this event... this was a larger than expected tournament and there was a shortage of referees. The incident occured during DEs. There was no problem during pools - but this referee did not direct any pools. Another weapon/event was starting pools and the shortage got worse and they needed him to direct. Honestly, you learn to expect some variety in the refereeing, and not to get too upset about things not going your way. My kid has learned that in order to win you need a lot of things to go your way, somtime you get the wrong/right pool, the wrong/right bracket, the wrong/right referee.

I am not trying to whine about this referee - but I would like my kid to learn how to properly interact with the referee/bout committee. I've read the rules and the handbook and its still not clear what are the appropriate things you can say to ask for a description of the action, and to ask for an observer - which is why I posted to THIS thread.

The only guidance I've been able to give is, if you use a tone that suggests you are trying to change the referee's mind, you are heading for trouble - you should use a tone that suggests you are trying to obtain the referee's point of view (so you can change what they view).

[fdad]

Originally Posted by keith

I believe you provided an answer for all this in your first post;

So maybe we should just skip DEs?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by fdad

What is the appropriate way for a fencer to ask for this (observation by the bout committee)? (I would prefer for my kid to learn to be self sufficient and not rely on me or another spectator to run to the bout committee)



In all fairness to the referees at this event... this was a larger than expected tournament and there was a shortage of referees. The incident occured during DEs. There was no problem during pools - but this referee did not direct any pools. Another weapon/event was starting pools and the shortage got worse and they needed him to direct. Honestly, you learn to expect some variety in the refereeing, and not to get too upset about things not going your way. My kid has learned that in order to win you need a lot of things to go your way, somtime you get the wrong/right pool, the wrong/right bracket, the wrong/right referee.

I am not trying to whine about this referee - but I would like my kid to learn how to properly interact with the referee/bout committee. I've read the rules and the handbook and its still not clear what are the appropriate things you can say to ask for a description of the action, and to ask for an observer - which is why I posted to THIS thread.

The only guidance I've been able to give is, if you use a tone that suggests you are trying to change the referee's mind, you are heading for trouble - you should use a tone that suggests you are trying to obtain the referee's point of view (so you can change what they view).

I'm glad you want to make your child self sufficient, but there are times when it does and doesn't work. A fencer really ought to be the person who asks for a clarification ("what did you say, sir?" "what was the action, ma'am?" "excuse me, did my opponent go off the strip?"), asks for time, asks for score (my teammates know NEVER to do this on my behalf, I ask if I want the information, I don't ask if I don't want my opponent to have the information)... the fencer ought to be the person to ask for a test.

If there's a matter of fact that's incorrect, again, it's the fencer's job to intervene. When it's a matter of judgement-- when the ref isn't watching the action, when the ref isn't calling actions (just points), or when it's abundantly clear that the ref is out of their league, the fencer cannot say "excuse me, I need to go do something, I'll be right back", and when they say "c'mon, wasn't it my parry reposte??"

This is where coaches, teammates, friends, and parents come into play. From reminding the fencer of something "do you want to test?" and handing off water bottles, friends strip side can often get away with being a LITTLE bit more suggestive. "Make that beat more clear" and the ref might see the beat. A well timed "sir!?" after a call the ref wasn't sure about might make him see the call differently in the future.

And, of course, not all of this should end up in an FAQ : ) .

Who can ask for {thing}? should be.

[keith]

Originally Posted by fdad

So maybe we should just skip DEs?

Nah, just add "referee not making assumptions about the outcome of the bout" to the list of the things that the paranoid can worry about. The attention a referee pays can, on occasion, be correlated to how close they think the bout is going to be.

If a ref is calling an action a certain way nothing you say or suggest, no matter how you phrase it, is likely to get them to change how they make the call for that action. It is entirely possible they have been making the call that way for more years than your fencer has been on the planet.

Depending on the level of the competition complaining about refs - or asking to have them observed - is unlikely to have any consequence. Of course when you win a DE you can always mention to the BC that you have no bloody idea how or why the ref let you win. As the day goes on and the BC need fewer refs they can start being picky about who to keep around.

[peet]

Originally Posted by fdad

What is the appropriate way for a fencer to ask for this (observation by the bout committee)? (I would prefer for my kid to learn to be self sufficient and not rely on me or another spectator to run to the bout committee)

Short answer:

The fencer cannot ask for an observer.

A bystander must make this request to the BC, which the BC is under no obligation to grant. Observers are not mentioned in the rules, and the fencer has no explicit "right" to them.

That said, if a person known to the BC to be competent informs them that in their opinion, "the ref over on strip 23 looks like he's in over his head", they'll usually check it out.

-p