Hand Judging - who makes the final call?

[erik_blank]

OK, I thought that I knew this, but suddenly I am feeling unsure of myself.

In the event that a referee requests "hand judges" after determining that one of the fencers is covering target area with the off hand, who makes the final call if a judge indicates that one of the fencers has obstructed target area?

Can the Referee decide that the hand judge was incorrect and throw out the call? Doesn't make sense if that were true, yet the referee is supposed to be the final arbiter of the rules on th strip.
(and yes this is a question from the directors study guide(#222 in the foil section), but I could not find reference to this in the rules book, and decided that it must be some sort of agreed to convention by 'the powers that be.')

[KD5MDK]

The referee makes the final call.

[erik_blank]

I'm not surprised that this is the answer.

I am puzzled by this though, since the hand judge is there to only watch ofor covering of the target, I would think that they would be in a better position than the director to make the call and that thus they should get the final call.

[oiuyt]

The judges (if present) assist the referee. The role is defined in t.36.

The role of the referee is defined in t.35. It includes "penalizes faults". This duty is not mentioned in t.36, as it's not a duty of a judge.

Incidently, I disagree that "the hand judge is there to only watch ofor covering of the target".

-B

[erik_blank]

Incidently, I disagree that "the hand judge is there to only watch ofor covering of the target".

Sorry, I miss-wrote that bit. I agree that they are there for other reasons, though this is the primary reason that I see them called for, and their instruction is generally that of watching for the obstruction. Can you give me a few other things that they are called for besides obstrucion? Floor hits in Epee? Leaving the Side of the strip in all weapons?

[KD5MDK]

The best example of why it's good that the referee makes the call I know of comes from Jerry Benson:

In a foil match, one fencer made an attack, landed valid, and then covered target with his mask. The side judge indicated that covering occurred, and Jerry overruled him because the action stopped when the attack arrived.

Side judges usually aren't parsing the phrase, so their awareness of the exact timing of events compared to the referee is often not as good.

I agree with oiuyt that side judges are watching for much more than covering target.

[peet]

It's quite rare for the referee to disregard the advice of a side judge, for exactly the reason you mention. The only times I've seen it happen is when the referee sees something else happen that makes the offense irrelevant, like a halt before the offense.

But the ref is in charge for all purposes on the strip, so they have the final word.

[erik_blank]

Thanks to al that have repied. Got my mind rolling again....

[KD5MDK]

Sorry, I miss-wrote that bit. I agree that they are there for other reasons, though this is the primary reason that I see hem called for, and their instruction is generally that of wacing for the obstruction. Can you give me a few other things that they are called for besides obstrucion? Floor hits in Epee? Leaving the Side of the strip in all weapons?

Any rule violation.

Things I have called as a side judge:
covering target
valid/non-valid hits
defensive use of the off weapon arm in epee
touching the electrical equipment
hair on the lame
corps a corps
leaving the seat of the chair

[H Man]

The referee has finale say on all calls regardless of the observation of an assessor and/or judge- for hand, foot, cross over (saber) "but" (wheel chair) etc. No question.

[erik_blank]

leaving the seat of the chair

Hummm... I think that I should have had that called on me quite a few times in my fencing career....

[Cookeit]

So.. are you allowed to ask for a hand judge any time that you, the fencer, think it is needed?

What happens if the bout committee/tournament runners say "no, we don't have enough directors/people to have a hand judge"? Are we, the fencer, able to refuse to fence until a judge can be found?

What happens if you feel the selected hand judge is not competent in fencing rules.. can you make an "appeal/complaint"?

Also, is there another judge you can ask for when you think the other fencer is stepping off the strip?

Thanks
-Travis

[KD5MDK]

1) Yes, you may as for asseseurs at any time, but...
2) No, they need not be provided just because you ask
3) I suppose you could make a request to have the judge observed...
4) There is no distinction in types of judges.

[Guymelef]

So.. are you allowed to ask for a hand judge any time that you, the fencer, think it is needed?

I've never seen this refused. Every request is honored.

What happens if the bout committee/tournament runners say "no, we don't have enough directors/people to have a hand judge"? Are we, the fencer, able to refuse to fence until a judge can be found?

The bout committee will find a way. There are usually refs in the bull pen for just such a contingency. Fencing will be on hold while they gathered and sent. At local meets I have seen other fencers drafted for just such a purpose.

What happens if you feel the selected hand judge is not competent in fencing rules.. can you make an "appeal/complaint"?

If that hand judge is in a blue jacket, he or she is competent. In addition, that judge is only a jury member who makes a SUGGESTION to the referee. It is still the referee's final decision. It is the REFEREE who applies the rules.

Also, is there another judge you can ask for when you think the other fencer is stepping off the strip?

If the fencer is stepping off the strip and the ref is missing it, you can ask for that referee to be observed. Usually another, higher-rated referee will be sent over to watch.

[KD5MDK]

Guymelef - Really, my experience is much different than yours in this case. At the national level, sure, there's always someone available. Locally? I wouldn't expect it. I certainly would NEVER expect fencing to be delayed to provide assesseurs, unless the referee requested them personally.

[schlager7]

As an example of a refusal to call for side judges/assesseurs...

A few years ago I had a young (college-age) fencer in a pool at an epee competition. He was also an aspiring referee.

When I called the fencers to my pool, he advised that, since our strip was not grounded, it was his intent to request "floor judges" for every one of his pool bouts (pool of 8, so he had seven bouts). He stated he did not know most of his opponents and did not know if any of them even made much use of foot hits, but wanted the floor judges regardless.

This was a smallish local tournament and there were no extra referees. I advised that it would likely, in most cases, be refused unless I saw something that indicated detection of the hit was going to be problematic.

[Joe biebel]

In a DE match at the Chicago NAC this last season, the ref in a match I fenced in, overuled the side judge I implored to make a call, that said that no covering had occured. I was shocked and thankful.

I have had fencers I officiated for ask for side judges numerous times. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes no. The most common "no" usually comes from a situation where one fencer covers target after a halt and there was no real infraction, just nearly an infraction. The other fencer notices the almost infraction and asks for judges.

I'm not against using side judges at all. I normally know when I need them and won't seek them if I'm sure I have a good handle on the situation.

[Guymelef]

Guymelef - Really, my experience is much different than yours in this case. At the national level, sure, there's always someone available. Locally? I wouldn't expect it. I certainly would NEVER expect fencing to be delayed to provide assesseurs, unless the referee requested them personally.

KD5- I didn't mean to post anything out of school. We must have been typing our responses at the same time Yes, I have experienced both cases. At a NAC a few years back I had an opponent who was covering target in foil. My request for assesseurs was accepted and it took some time for them to be found.

Locally, we have a venue with two big load-bearing columns in the middle of the salle. These obscure the ref's view of action at either end of the strip. I have called at least one assesseur to watch for things like stepping off and covering.

Our Cherry Blossom is run on a gym floor and we typically work without a ref reserve. We have students from the University of Maryland club running around as facilitators. If someone requests floor-touch judges in pools or early DEs they're usually the ones who get drafted.

[KD5MDK]

I don't want to suggest that your experiences aren't valid. If that's what happens around your area, that's what he should expect there. In my part of the country, things are different. One thing we find on this forum is the many regional variations on how things are done.

[arc]

I've never seen this refused. Every request is honored.

I have refused a request for assesseurs, and at a national tournament. It's been some time and a lot of tournaments ago, so I don't remember exactly what happened to trigger the fencer's request, but I remember that I saw the action perfectly clearly, and the particular fencer had been, shall we say, especially argumentative throughout the pool ...

In DE's at national tournaments, as opposed to pools, it's generally easier to obtain assesseurs, as there are usually extra referees assigned to the quadrants, and I can't recall an occasion when I've refused a request for assesseurs in a DE bout.