Is there a such thing as "dirty fencing?"

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

I'm curious as to everyone's opinion regarding whether you can be a "dirty fencer" in foil, or would this be caught and punished with a card by your referee if it happened? I'm especially interested in the opinions of the folks at PdF, including epeemike, jdapostrophe et al., since I was accused of this by a fencer I beat in DEs at a competiton there on August 10th or 24th...I'm not sure which. Fortunately, this fencer claimed this to a clubmate of mine, so the news got back to me, but how often does this happen otherwise? If there is dirty play going on, it should be brought up, immediately, to the referee.

I believe that there is really no way to be a "dirty fencer." In football, one can pull all sorts of moves on a field with 22 players and only a handful of referees. In fencing, what can you do?

Confirmed: It was August 10th

[AndrewH]

For any weapon, I'd say intentional corps a corps would qualify as dirty. Maybe a knee or an elbow thrown during said cac. It never gets carded in sabre anyway...

[OROD]

<sigh>... I thought this thread was going to include some sort of nudity or otherwise debauched behavior. But alas, no nudity whatsoever.

.

[Inquartata]

And THANK YOU for keeping it that way!

[telkanuru]

What exactly were the "dirty" tactics that were claimed?

[mrbiggs]

There are ways, but you generally have to really try for it, and you have to break the rules fairly severely.

I've heard of punches thrown during a bout and the like. This is unquestionably dirty fencing.

[fatfencer]

is an extremely dirty, low-moraled, old fencer. When he dies, fencing will have one less blotch on it.

I fenced him once warming up. Seemed nice enough.

But when the tournament started he had changed uniforms.

His old one was tight fitting and compliant to the regs.

This new one was for someone 4 times larger than he was with a custom made neck to nuts CP. So you really couldnt get a fix with the point as it would just move. His uniform was billowing like a flag!! Especially his lame.

I'm not even remotely exaggerating. Chuck was a skinny guy at the time. Maybe 5'11 160 or so. His lame was almost 4 feet wide and was sliding over his CP which too was NOT form fitting. This was at the linkmeyer...boy that got me hot. Karma catches up with people like him, though.


He's a lefty so when you attacked him he just jumped off the strip and the director, who was a complete noob then(but is quite competent now btw) was allowing him to do this. It was a nightmare.

I was so ashamed for him. He must be an ambulance chaser.

Fatfencer

[D'Art]

There are loads of ways of being cute about things, but you'd need to be either really confident or really stupid to even think of trying them against a good ref. They WILL catch you.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

What exactly were the "dirty" tactics that were claimed?

I'm not sure...I have to find out whether it was on the 10th or 24th...in each of these competitions, I beat a younger fencer in the first round of DEs. I was told he was simply saying that I'm a dirty fencer after I beat him.

[epeelion]

I had a fencer come up to me about 5 years ago, after I had beaten him in a pool bout. While shaking hands, I said "nice bout", and he said something along the lines of "yeah, it would have been better if it had been legitimate". He was referring to the fact that I had ducked a few times during the bout and hit him. Perfectly normal ducks. What was even more laughable was that he's an ex-boxer.

Sometimes people just don't like to lose. Don't worry about it.

[latenight]

I've never been called a dirty fencer. I was how ever, told I was "evil" after a bout once. I still don't know what the hell that meant.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by epeelion

Sometimes people just don't like to lose. Don't worry about it.

I agree!* However, if someone starts to spread stuff around, SOME people will believe it.

*I don't like to lose, but for some reason, I still fence.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

I'm curious as to everyone's opinion regarding whether you can be a "dirty fencer" in foil, or would this be caught and punished with a card by your referee if it happened? I'm especially interested in the opinions of the folks at PdF, including epeemike, jdapostrophe et al., since I was accused of this by a fencer I beat in DEs at a competiton there on August 10th or 24th...I'm not sure which. Fortunately, this fencer claimed this to a clubmate of mine, so the news got back to me, but how often does this happen otherwise? If there is dirty play going on, it should be brought up, immediately, to the referee.

I believe that there is really no way to be a "dirty fencer." In football, one can pull all sorts of moves on a field with 22 players and only a handful of referees. In fencing, what can you do?

Alright, two questions to answer here:
First off, yes it's possible to be a dirty fencer. Andrew's examples were good ones. I'd say the example of punching somebody actually isn't being a dirty fencer, but just something that falls outside the realm of fencing all together. Part of what makes the knees and elbows thrown during cac dirty is that they're hard to spot, and I can't really imagine a punch being such. I'd expand the definition to include certain types of intentional covering target.

Second, no, nothing you do in general or specifically did that day would be considered "dirty" by me.

-m

[dcrocket]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

I'm curious as to everyone's opinion regarding whether you can be a "dirty fencer" in foil, or would this be caught and punished with a card by your referee if it happened? I'm especially interested in the opinions of the folks at PdF, including epeemike, jdapostrophe et al., since I was accused of this by a fencer I beat in DEs at a competiton there on August 10th or 24th...I'm not sure which. Fortunately, this fencer claimed this to a clubmate of mine, so the news got back to me, but how often does this happen otherwise? If there is dirty play going on, it should be brought up, immediately, to the referee.

I believe that there is really no way to be a "dirty fencer." In football, one can pull all sorts of moves on a field with 22 players and only a handful of referees. In fencing, what can you do?

Someone once told me that all of the rules of fencing were made because someone was cheating...

In San Jose, I had to card someone for intentionally hitting off target. He fleched his opponent and missed, but flicked the floor as he passed, locking out his opponents perfect riposte...

[epeelion]

Did they change that to a red card now? I'm not sure. Either way, it's definitely a specifically cardable offense.

[peet]

Originally Posted by epeelion

Did they change that to a red card now? I'm not sure. Either way, it's definitely a specifically cardable offense.

That's been red for a few years.

[Timberwolf_CY]

Actually, at foil, I would say constantly battering someone with their foil could be considered dirty. I don't mean getting legitimate touches, I mean cutting with it like a saber. When I first started fencing, probably near the end of the first year, I fenced a guy at a D and Under here in St. Louis, and apparently he normally fenced saber, because he constantly...what...slashed his weapon all over the place, I mean, he was really reckless. Most of it just seemed for show to try to scare me. I won 5-3, or 2, but I think he should have been carded for brutality. I would care if it had been just some haphazard hits on my arm, but I mean, I got done with the bout, and my weapon arm was lined with tons of marks/bruises from this dude. He shouted constantly during the bout too, and I don't mean after touches like normal, I mean, he just constantly yelled every time he swung his weapon. We had a rookie ref, but I mean, he sucked so bad it was obvious I was going to win simply on the part of his recklessness, so I didn't bring it up. He scampered off after the bout crying and stuff after his loss, but I really don't feel sorry for him.

Later at the open tourny, which my club did not have enough gear for me to compete in (this was probably about 3-6 months later, a while ago) the same guy (who the club refers to as "slasher" since we don't know his real name) fenced my teacher/fellow fencer, and broke THREE weapons on him: both of his weapons, and another weapon he borrowed from someone else to finish the bout. He had to borrow a second weapon to finish the bout, which he lost anyway. People like him are the number-one reason I don't let anyone borrow my weapons except for people I explicitly trust like my very close friends, people I fence with and know won't do anything too extreme, my coaches/teachers, etc. That may seem like a lot of exceptions, but only about 5 people out of the 40 or so fencers I know qualify for that list.

Anyway, I would say bludgeoning someone like the manner that happened to me could be called brutality, but it would have to be really flagrant, something totally out of the norm. I can't say it really affected my fencing, but boy was I sore for the next couple days.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by dcrocket

Someone once told me that all of the rules of fencing were made because someone was cheating...

In San Jose, I had to card someone for intentionally hitting off target. He fleched his opponent and missed, but flicked the floor as he passed, locking out his opponents perfect riposte...

You could probably say anything on the penalty chart done intentionally is dirty fencing.

You could say Modern Penthalon is dirty fencing.

Perhaps the interesting question is "Is there dirty fencing that isn't listed on the penalty chart?"

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

"...I was told he was simply saying that I'm a dirty fencer after I beat him.

Do you wash your uniform often enough?