Fencing clubs and weapons on campus?

[rburch]

Anyway, I was wondering if any college clubs have had trouble with their faculty because they were worried about the dangers of having weapons on campus.

If so how did you resolve this issue?

[thekoby]

If members are taking equipment with them to their dorms or around campus, have them purchase a bag large enough to hold all the equipment. There still might some issues with the idea of actually having the equipment, even if it's inside a bag, in the dorm buildings.

Is there an equipment room or storage area that you can hold others' equipment for them?

[mesulater]

no there isnt a storage room for us to keep our stuff because the university is currently under construction. I am the VP in the case rburch is talking about. As a matter of fact, we cant even find a space on campus for us to pratice at the momment.

I went and talked to a member of the dean of students today. Right now I may have it worked out that we can keep our weapons with our university police department. The only problem is they dont want us to show our equipment around campus which includes our Club Fair tommorow. Which means no demonstations or displaying weapons.

They are worred that the equipment can be used to injure someone, i brought up the case of baseball bats and gold clubs. His comment was when you look at a baseball bat or golf club you dont see a weapon.

From our student conduct book, "45. Weapons: The unauthorized use, possession or storage of firearms, ammunition, weapons or realistic replicas of weapons on Radford University Property. Firearms are defined as any weapon thatfires projectiles. Weapons include any object or substance designed or used to inflict a wound, cause injury or incapacitate. Paintball guns may not be used or stored on Radford Universityproperty without prior approval from the Office of the Dean of Students"

The part we are having problems with is that they say our equipment is a realistic replica. I was going to put in a case that they arent realistic replicas by comparing them to accual replicas. We are supposed to here back tommorow afternoon.

[thekoby]

Understandable. I've had to deal with my university not thinking of baseball bats, golf clubs, lacross sticks, and even hockey sticks as weapons. When I made a point to my RA that several people in the dorm building had knife sets to make food in the kitchen, he gave it second thought and allowed it, but we were not allowed to take our equipment out of our fencing bags unless our door was closed and locked and we were only to take it out of the bags for maintainence.

I find it interesting that your university would not allow you to do demonstrations at the fair. I can see how they are worried that some innocent bystander may get injured, but if you express, and demonstrate, that you are competent in the safe use of the euipment, then they may change their minds. For my club's demos, we taped a strip onto the surface of the sidewalk and had two people standing on opposite sides of the strip to make sure nobody got too close or walked through the middle of a bout (and to also serve as a guide to let watchers know what was going on).

It does suck, and I think you have a good idea showing your Dean of Students the difference between fencing equipment and weapon replicas, especially since the closest to a real sword fencing weapons can get is the sabre.

[rburch]

Hey Mike, ask the dean if the track group has to keep their Javelins with the police too?

And see if you can contact the martial arts club about their weapons.

[mesulater]

Ryan, I might as well go find you on campus and tell you this. lol

Anyways, I mentioned the guy from Moffett in the karate club who kept all his swords on campus. Aparently he was supposed to keep his stuff off campus. That was the agreement with the Dean. He decided to keep his stuff in his dorm anyways.

I tried the whole "this can be used as a weapon" thing. All the school would tell me was that it didnt matter because they arent weapons. Knives are tools and bats and golf clubs are sporting equipment. I then said are weapons were sporting equipment and then he responded saying they may be sporting equipment now, but they are still weapon replicas and were at one time real weapons.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by mesulater

{snip}
I then said are weapons were sporting equipment and then he responded saying they may be sporting equipment now, but they are still weapon replicas and were at one time real weapons.

Is there an archery club?

Similarly, as noted above, javelins were also weapons.

What, exactly, is the concern? That someone will use it in a crime? A quick google search didn't show any crime committed with a fencing weapon. Baseball bats, on the other hand....

It's a frickin' NCAA and Olympic sport, for God's sake.

I'd point out that a half dozen or more other state universities in Virginia have fencing clubs or teams. USFA Virginia Clubs Link. Let alone the rest of the country.

How dangerous can it really be? You might also want to directly contact the university clubs, check whether their school has a similar "replica weapons policy" and if it was an issue.

--Philistine

[Cookeit]

I am allowed to carry around my foil in a sheath on my back for protection when walking around campus. (maybe)

[thekoby]

Originally Posted by mesulater

but they are still weapon replicas and were at one time real weapons.

Didn't baseball bats start out as large chunks of wood that were used to club animals to death (and pick your mate) by cavemen?? How is that not a weapon??

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by mesulater

I tried the whole "this can be used as a weapon" thing. All the school would tell me was that it didnt matter because they arent weapons. Knives are tools and bats and golf clubs are sporting equipment. I then said are weapons were sporting equipment and then he responded saying they may be sporting equipment now, but they are still weapon replicas and were at one time real weapons.

The first rule is never call them weapons (at least not to anyone other than other fencers) - they are sporting equipment. Unfortunately it sounds like you are running up against someone who has already made up their mind, facts be damned (the 'replicas of historic weapons' argument seems more like a feeble attempt to justify that decision than a rational argument - as others have already pointed out, a significant amount of sporting equipment originated as weapons).

Given the fact that the individual you are dealing with is most likely an low ranking administrative minion with relatively little real authority (but obviously more than you) it might be wise to enlist the assistance of someone else who has some authority, such as your athletic director or faculty adviser. That alone may be enough lead to a solution (if nothing else, maybe finding suitable storage space).

If worse comes to worse then you may have to appeal to a higher authority, at which point it will help if the appeal comes from a faculty member rather than a disgruntled student. If things do indeed get that far then you can ask the individual who made the initial ruling to justify their decision in light of the facts that A) fencing has long been recognized as a sport by the NCAA (which may not sound as impressive as the Olympics but is probably more applicable to a college campus) and B) they have already that other items of sporting equipment are permissible, despite having far greater potential for use as a weapon.

[mesulater]

I was suppsed to meet with the top dean yesterday, and they decided without telling me that I was going to meet with someone else who didnt even give me a title.

I went in their with the approach of not calling them weapons and was calling the weapons sporting gear. It got to the point I was told to stop trying to change the name because in their opinion they truly are weapons.

Does anyone happen to have or know of a place were fencing equipment is defined as sporting gear and not weapons?

I emailed our faculty advisor yesterday, and I know he will be trying to help us out with this matter. I think I will go in there and explain to them if I get another chance or send them an email and bring out the fact of fencing equipment and crime and how lots of other sports started as weapons too.


By the way, I apprciate everyone help in this matter. Club fair sure will be intresting today.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by mesulater

I was suppsed to meet with the top dean yesterday, and they decided without telling me that I was going to meet with someone else who didnt even give me a title.

I went in their with the approach of not calling them weapons and was calling the weapons sporting gear. It got to the point I was told to stop trying to change the name because in their opinion they truly are weapons.

Unfortunately it sounds like this individual had already closed their mind to any rational discussion. I doubt that either you or your faculty adviser will be able to change that. It may be time to consider going over their head.

I emailed our faculty advisor yesterday, and I know he will be trying to help us out with this matter.

Wise move - any appeal to higher authority is always likely to better received if it comes from a faculty member (as opposed to a "disgruntled student", as you are likely to be described). Bear in mind that even then it will be an uphill battle - the administration is likely to feel obliged to stand by the original decision even if they don't agree with the rational used to justify it.

Club fair sure will be intresting today.

Use lots of large posters (that may be all you can do given your current restrictions). Emphasize that it is a SPORT and avoid the "W" word. If you can find a pair of wacky-whacker foam sabers then maybe use them in a demonstration (if the administration were to try and ban those using their current arguments then they would risk revealing to the world how ludicrous their position really is). Other than that, try to avoid doing anything that might further antagonize the situation (such as saying "We would demonstrate however certain powers within the administration won't allow us to bring our equipment on campus").

[Wafath]

Originally Posted by mesulater

Does anyone happen to have or know of a place were fencing equipment is defined as sporting gear and not weapons?

Well, you could get a lot of coaches to say it. (PM me if you think it will help) Or possibly contact the USFA and get information from the insurance company they use on injury rates. The coaches are an authority. The insurance company (or reports they generate) are not authorities, but they will carry more weight with the school.

Fencing "weapons" are in fact anti-weapons: they are carefully designed and constructed to repeatedly hit another human being (wearing the designated safety gear) and NOT cause harm. See the material rules for more details. Also see elsewhere cited injury rates and their causes in fencing.

Case in point, as a long time collegiate club coach I routinely let my students hit me with these so-called "weapons", probably to the tune of around 2000 hits a year. I would NEVER do this with, oh say, a baseball bat, golf club, or hockey stick.

<Don't do this>
If you loose the argument, every time you see people playing golf, baseball, or softball on campus, complain to the dean that students are walking around with clubs, swinging them, and you feel unsafe. Demand that they follow the rules that they have set.
</don't do this>

<also don't do this>
Carry around a baseball bat, pocket knife (on the outside), or golf club wherever you go. If anyone asks you, quote the dean.
</also don't do this>

<definitely don't do this>
Hit the dean with a sabre. (not in the head) Explain that it was typical of the damage caused by a fencing weapon. Pull out a baseball bat and offer to repeat the exercise with some "sports equipment".
</definitely don't do this>

Our school has similar rules to that you stated above. I think the difference is that a) we have a campus rec department that has blessed us from the perspective of a sport (and lets face it, of all the sports clubs on campus, we have one of the lower injury rates, esp compared to equestrian, boxing, rugby and women's ice hockey), b) we have a campus police force who has the job of enforcing the rule, and they seem to take the attitude of "if you don't make it a problem, it isn't a problem." (Nice people for the most part.) and c) we never asked the dean. (and d, we aren't a few miles from VT)

W

[rburch]

Originally Posted by Wafath

(and d, we aren't a few miles from VT)

W

the thing that annoys me is Virginia Tech has a fencing club and they don't have any problems

I'm getting so sick of this it looks scary it must be banned crap.

[mesulater]

Our advisor is emailing the dean, and is going to try and set up a meeting with him.

The final descion is that we have to immidiatley remove all our weapons from campus. I tried explaing other sports and they pretty much gave me different answers of no and how they dont look like weapons.

I explained that others schools have fencing and it is an NCAA sport, however Radford University said that we are not those other schools. Which is true I guess.

We are also going to be told we cannot practice on campus. Our plans are to offer lessons at a near by church that has a gym. We are also going to try and get support for a city sponsored fencing club. Other than the colleges in the New River Valley (VT, Roanoke, and Hollins) there are no privatley owned fencing clubs. We are going to take the chance and start offering lessons to the public. Thanks to my home fencing club, Fairfax Fencers, we have been donated 2 scorring machines and 2 reels. Along with over 20 jackets and masks. So we should be able to pull it off.

We will also probobly end up withdrawling from our schools club commitie if they do not change their mind. More to come on Monday. I'll let you know how it turns out. From the RU fencing club, we appriciate all the help. We will also probobly end up withdrawling from our schools club commitie if they do not change their mind. More to come on Monday.

Mike Salomon
Fencing Club of Radford University - VP

[rburch]

So if we no longer part of RU, can I be a officer in the club even though I'm not a student?

Wait, nevermind, I've seen what you guys go through, I don't want to be an officer.

I'll be driving my 4runner over this afternoon, we can load all the stuff in it.

[Wafath]

Another suggestion for when if things go as they look, and when you write a letter to your school's editor.

Do a google news search (or better yet, a lexis-nexis search) on the phrases "Baseball bat" and "Baseball bat beating" vs "Fencing weapon" etc.

Note how many stories come back for baseball bats involving violent crime, and yet a casual google news search (say "fencing weapon" arrest, or "fencing weapon" assault, etc.) returns no results.

(of course, you must understand that this is not about protecting students, or even protecting the school from liability. This is about exercising power, as it usually is in weird-ass school disputes.)

W

[mesulater]

Originally Posted by rburch

So if we no longer part of RU, can I be a officer in the club even though I'm not a student?

Wait, nevermind, I've seen what you guys go through, I don't want to be an officer.

I'll be driving my 4runner over this afternoon, we can load all the stuff in it.

Ryan, you are more than welcome to take lindsay's place!!! (Dont tell her I said that)

On a serious not though, I tried telling the school about crime and fencing equipment. Its pretty much they are on a point and as you said, they are excersising their power.

[milstdfarm]

Sorry to hear about your troubles on campus. As other people have said, I don't think this has anything to do with fencing, weapons, risk, etc. It is all about beauracracy. Once a decision has been made, no matter how stupid it is, the other admin's must back it. Good luck.

It got me to thinking though, there are some high school fencing teams across the country. Political correctness being what it is, how in the heck can that happen?

[Allen Evans]

For every high school fencing team in one city, there are three other high schools in other cities that have no program because weapons are not allowed in the school, and fencing equipment is considered a weapon, much like the case at Radford University.

Virginia has been discussing/trying to start a high school fencing program, and this has been one of the issues that have been brought up by potential schools.

Fencing has to be constantly sold to the public as a safe, sensible SPORT. Too many club owners and fencers are willing to follow a "Zorro" or "dueling" media tagline to get their club in the paper, or on television. This continuously feeds the perception that we use weapons that can cause injury. How many of you -- when meeting someone for the first time -- are asked if fencing hurts, or if many people are injured every year? Does a question like that really make any sense if someone gave it a moment's thought? Instead, it's a knee-jerk reaction to an image that is constantly presented.

Of course, this was probably not the only issue at Radford, which is more about a group of college administrators making a "decision" rather than actually investigating an issue and making a smart policy. But fencing and fencers -- in general -- don't often do enough to give nervous administators the information to make a smart choice.

Allen Evans