Fencing clubs and weapons on campus?

[swordsen]

You are caught up in one of those moronic "zero tolerance" issues that are increasing all over the place due to over reactions to events like VT.

Unfortunately, small minded power nut, bureaucrats live for situation like this so you are pretty much screwed for awhile. If they don't lighten up after awhile, burn the bridges, go public and try and expose them as the fools they are.

[erik_blank]

Perhaps we in the fencing community can start an e-mail campaign to attempt to change the University's administrations thoughts on this?

Can you provide the Deans name and e-mail address? Perhaps even the University presidents name and e-mail address?

May I suggest something like the following for the body of the text:

Dear Dean/President (Fill in the blank)

I have become aware that your university is having difficulty in allowing a group of paying university students from participating in an NCAA sport, specifically that of the sport of Fencing. I have been made to understand that the University is concerned that the sporting equipment used in this sport can be considered as a weapon, and based on this judgment that the equipment and the actual sport itself should be banned from the University grounds.

I wish to help to point out a misconception that may have lead to this decision by some of your fellow staff members. While it is true that the current sport of Olympic/NCAA fencing comes down to us from the origins of learning to defend yourself, the sport has since evolved into a modern, safe energetic recreational activity that is taught in high schools, colleges and universities across the country. The idea that our fencing equipment could be classified as a "weapon" in any modern sense of the word is suspect at least, and laughable when examined. Our Foils, Épées and Sabers are specifically designed to ensure the safety of the participants. Any potential edges are rounded and points are blunted and designed to ensure that injuries are reduced to the point to being nearly statically invisible. In fact, reported injuries due to our equipment compared to those of other sports on a per-capita basis is significantly lower than any other more popular sport. (Sprains, strains and other related muscular/skeletal injuries are on par with other sports.)

Based on this, I would request that you review the decision to disallow these paying university students their rights to have their sports equipment on campus and their ability to hold practices on campus.

Sincerely,

Erik S. Blank
Coach, IUP Fencing Club
Indianan University of PA
Indiana, PA 15701

Direct action anyone?

[rburch]

Perhaps we in the fencing community can start an e-mail campaign to attempt to change the University's administrations thoughts on this?

Direct action anyone?

Unfortunatly it wouldn't help. The dean has admitted that they aren't weapons, and that they aren't dangerous.

But RU has "replica weapons" listed in their rules, and that is why they're banning our gear.

So basically if it looks anything like a weapon it's banned. Some people got warnings for having Nerf Guns in the dorms last week.

[Wafath]

Perhaps we in the fencing community can start an e-mail campaign to attempt to change the University's administrations thoughts on this?

In my experience, outside[*] attempts at influence never helps, and often hurts. Just let it be, and let the students navigate the compromise.

W

* There are, indeed, several groups that can get away with a letter to the school's administration and have it taken seriously. Who is in the group varies heavily from school to school, but typically members of this group have some say over money being sent to the school: rich & actively donating alumni, political leaders, and to a very small extent, parents.

[telkanuru]

I'm pretty sure if the AP called up the university asking for comment, the ban would be reversed

[Firebird7137]

Look through pages 47-50 on the USFA Rulebook, found here:

http://www.usfencing.org/usfa/compon...tartdown/id,5/

Although they do refer to blades as "Weapons," there are some interesting points (no pun intended) which you could use to argue your case, such as: "The weapon should be so constructed that it cannot normally injure either the user or his opponent." (Ch1.m1.)

etc.

I never had administrative trouble with fencing gear in either high school or college, the kicker was always insurance and liability for the clubs I started.

You also might want to try the academic argument, that fencing is a rigorous sport both physically and mentally which values discipline and focus, not simply swinging swords around (as any ol' movie star can do). The best advice I can offer is to stick with it,even if you have to form a club in conjunction with your local YMCA or other gym.

Good luck!

[emagdnim]

I say shift their bureaucratic sillyness to a different sport of club; such as football or martial arts or something and argue that fencing is safer.

[rburch]

I say shift their bureaucratic sillyness to a different sport of club; such as football or martial arts or something and argue that fencing is safer.

They don't care about the safety. They've said they know it's safe, but that we have replicas of weapons and those are against the university rules.

[Philistine]

They don't care about the safety. They've said they know it's safe, but that we have replicas of weapons and those are against the university rules.

This is the part that seems silly to me.

From the previous post--the actual rule seems to be what is prohibited is "The unauthorized use, possession or storage of... realistic replicas of weapons on Radford University Property."

(My emphasis)

Putting aside the issue of whether fencing weapons are "reaslistic replicas" of actual swords--which they appear to have decided against you--you're not asking to violate the rule.

You are asking for authorization.

Their statement is--it is against the rules to have unauthorized replicas. OK. Fair enough. Realistic replicas of weapons may be perceived to be the actual weapon and alarm others. Or they may be actually dangerous themselves. So the rule can make sense.

But you're asking for authorization. In order to not authorize it, they should have some sort of basis--merely pointing to the rule is circular, and I'm still at a loss as to what particular harm they think might come from such authorization.

Obviously, some students are authorized to have realistic replicas--for instance--it seems the ROTC Colorguard carries replica rifles (I assume they're not real).

That said--at this point you've probably banged your head against the wall enough for this year. Maybe follow the compromise, have an incident-free year and try to take it up again next year with a year's success behind you.

--Philistine

[rburch]

This is the part that seems silly to me.

From the previous post--the actual rule seems to be what is prohibited is "The unauthorized use, possession or storage of... realistic replicas of weapons on Radford University Property."

(My emphasis)

Putting aside the issue of whether fencing weapons are "reaslistic replicas" of actual swords--which they appear to have decided against you--you're not asking to violate the rule.

You are asking for authorization.

Their statement is--it is against the rules to have unauthorized replicas. OK. Fair enough. Realistic replicas of weapons may be perceived to be the actual weapon and alarm others. Or they may be actually dangerous themselves. So the rule can make sense.

But you're asking for authorization. In order to not authorize it, they should have some sort of basis--merely pointing to the rule is circular, and I'm still at a loss as to what particular harm they think might come from such authorization.

Obviously, some students are authorized to have realistic replicas--for instance--it seems the ROTC Colorguard carries replica rifles (I assume they're not real).

That said--at this point you've probably banged your head against the wall enough for this year. Maybe follow the compromise, have an incident-free year and try to take it up again next year with a year's success behind you.

--Philistine

What really pisses me off is that the mascot is a Scottish Highlander, and the school has a Highlands Festival every year where local desendants of the clans do a march and have displays and stuff...

And they are allowed to have their Claymores on display, and they have a group do sword demonstrations and stuff.

Oh well, the Dean we're dealing with made a decision on the issue, and from the looks of things he's not gonna change his stance for anything.

[telkanuru]

From the previous post--the actual rule seems to be what is prohibited is "The unauthorized use, possession or storage of... realistic replicas of weapons on Radford University Property."

You are asking for authorization.

Are you sure you're not an epeeist?

[Fechter1]

What really pisses me off is that the mascot is a Scottish Highlander, and the school has a Highlands Festival every year where local desendants of the clans do a march and have displays and stuff...

And they are allowed to have their Claymores on display, and they have a group do sword demonstrations and stuff.

Oh well, the Dean we're dealing with made a decision on the issue, and from the looks of things he's not gonna change his stance for anything.

So next time call the campus cops on them. Be sure to bring written documentation from the Dean prohibiting the presence of such weapons. If campus cops refuse to act, you still have the option to escalate to the township police...

[rburch]

So next time call the campus cops on them. Be sure to bring written documentation from the Dean prohibiting the presence of such weapons. If campus cops refuse to act, you still have the option to escalate to the township police...

You missunderstand, it is a university sponsored event and they have permission.

And we've never gotten anything in writing from the dean, we've asked several times for a clarification of his ruling in writing and they've not responded.

[Marbles00]

Talk with him again and show him the weapon... they are harmless really! DONT REFER TO THEM AS SWORDS when you propose call them FOILS this is kinda important for them not to get the wrong idea.

Our Campus club had this problem, but we talked to the head of Registered Student Organizations. We explained the rule and the sport, and showed them fencing weapons. He said and quote "Oh thats what they look like, they are just over-glorified coat hangers" We also dont have a storage area, but we had a cabinet build and it is on wheels which holds all the club equiptment.

[Delta]

The college campus here is central to the Halloween celebrations and as such, wannabe Zorros and Musketeers always managed to find a weapon from a friend of a friend of a friend. The lenders of such weapons often fail to think of the consequences of the danger of completing a mutal friend's costume....i.e. did you lose an eyeball?

[dradtke]

I'm at Mary Washington, and our club has members who have carried their weapons and equipment out, in plain sight. Others have even taken their weapons to class. Most people either joke or ask questions, but we've never had any problems. We have to sign a ridiculous amount of liability forms and whatnot, but as far as I've seen there haven't been any problems with carrying fencing weapons around. We even fence outside from time to time, weather permitting.

[whiteandbluefencer]

We even fence outside from time to time, weather permitting.

Oooh, we do that too... only there are only a small handful of days where the weather is "permitting" at my college.

[rburch]

I'm at Mary Washington, and our club has members who have carried their weapons and equipment out, in plain sight. Others have even taken their weapons to class. Most people either joke or ask questions, but we've never had any problems. We have to sign a ridiculous amount of liability forms and whatnot, but as far as I've seen there haven't been any problems with carrying fencing weapons around. We even fence outside from time to time, weather permitting.

Yeah we used to do all that stuff, last year no problems with doing any of that. Also no problems having gear in the dorms.

This year they are pitching a fit about it, and it's pretty much killed our club. We had over 50 interested in joining at the start of the school year, plus about 10 old members.

Now we have about 3-5 members.

[SJCFU#2]

Now we have about 3-5 members.

Sounds like a classic bureaucratic solution - make things difficult enough and the problem will go away.

And unfortunately it sounds like they're winning.

[dradtke]

Yeah we used to do all that stuff, last year no problems with doing any of that. Also no problems having gear in the dorms.

This year they are pitching a fit about it, and it's pretty much killed our club. We had over 50 interested in joining at the start of the school year, plus about 10 old members.

Now we have about 3-5 members.

I'm sorry to hear that certain events may have diminished activity on your campus. Is there any way you can get "them" to come to a practice to show that that it's really not at all unsafe?