Fencing clubs and weapons on campus?

[oiuyt]

I went in their with the approach of not calling them weapons and was calling the weapons sporting gear. It got to the point I was told to stop trying to change the name because in their opinion they truly are weapons.

Which is why you shouldn't call them "sporting equipment" in such a conversation, as you're CLEARLY* trying to use a euphemism. Call them foils. And ignore the fact that they're not all foils. It's close enough, doesn't sound like you're trying to play games, but means you don't keep saying "weapons" to someone who is anti-weapon.

-B

* To a non-fencing administrator

[Rick Thompson]

Most of the posts have painted the administrator(s) as power-mad bureaucrats who have their fingers in their ears. However, they could be making a decision based on earlier experiences, or there could be other factors.

I didn't see in the posts what the history of the fencing club was, how long it had been established (or is it new), and what the history is with the rec directors.

While I was coaching a collegiate club (13 years), I had to help "break in" three or four new administrators in recreational/club sports. Almost without exception, they came down hard on the club, requiring various stupid things from disallowing tournaments to nearly banning the club. Experience, a long club history and patience were the virtues that help the club ride those rapids. Most of the administrators calmed down, got over their initial need to exert their authority, and listened to reason.

On the other hand, bad experiences with "the karate guy" or recreation groups that were irresponsible with their use of "weapons" could play into this situation. Sometimes a fantasy or LARP group will spoil things for fencing by using replica swords with poor judgement and poor safety.

In addition to the earlier comments about the materials being engineered for safety, I would suggest that you show the administrator(s) the safety rules that you require for the fencers (and... hint, hint.... have POSTED [or had] in your practice location), including the mandatory use of masks, etc. This emphasis on safety goes a LONG way.

Barring convincing the administrator, a club organization (which you are, with a faculty advisor) should have recourse to an appeal process, which will be conducted by a student council or faculty council.

Lastly, if you are holding OFFICIAL club practices at an off-campus location, and the administrators have condoned this, you might point out the MUCH greater liability issues with that. If they have merely asked you to "remove your weapons from campus", then have they disbanded the club or forbidden practices?

[rdg]

I fence at Stanford two nights a week and there is no problem bringing in epees, sabers and foils. Same at Las Positas Community college which I visit once in a while.

The irony is that you can be hit with an epee even on bare skin and it will never leave more than a scratch and a bruise perhaps. They are certainly not weapons. They are toys, or specially designed sports equipment, but I would rather have a beer bottle in a fight than an epee. It is useless.

Still I think it is awesome that it frightens freshmen and administrators.

Sam

[rburch]

...
I didn't see in the posts what the history of the fencing club was, how long it had been established (or is it new), and what the history is with the rec directors.

While I was coaching a collegiate club (13 years), I had to help "break in" three or four new administrators in recreational/club sports. Almost without exception, they came down hard on the club, requiring various stupid things from disallowing tournaments to nearly banning the club. Experience, a long club history and patience were the virtues that help the club ride those rapids. Most of the administrators calmed down, got over their initial need to exert their authority, and listened to reason.

On the other hand, bad experiences with "the karate guy" or recreation groups that were irresponsible with their use of "weapons" could play into this situation. Sometimes a fantasy or LARP group will spoil things for fencing by using replica swords with poor judgement and poor safety...

...Barring convincing the administrator, a club organization (which you are, with a faculty advisor) should have recourse to an appeal process, which will be conducted by a student council or faculty council.

Lastly, if you are holding OFFICIAL club practices at an off-campus location, and the administrators have condoned this, you might point out the MUCH greater liability issues with that. If they have merely asked you to "remove your weapons from campus", then have they disbanded the club or forbidden practices?

Part of our problem is the club is about 2 years old.

As it stands now, we can hold practices on campus, but we can't have any weapons.

We're in okay shape because we have a lot of first time fencers and weren't gonna give them weapons for a few weeks anyway.

Still it's annoying not to be able to give a demo or even bring the foils in to show them.

[mesulater]

We had our meeting today with one of the deans. They have decided to allow us to fence on campus, however we have to have our advisor at all our practices.

The one thing they decided though was that we had to keep our gear at RU police department. So we are going to run out to walmart or someothre store this weekend to by a cabinet to store our weapons in.

The university has decided that our weapons our realistic replicas and that is the problem we are having now. They havent given us a defition of realistic replica though. I tried bring up that the student conduct book defines a weapon as " any object or substance designed or used to inflict a wound, cause injury or incapacitate." Their responose was that they are realistic replicas of weapons.

We are going to leave the situation alone for now and see how it goes with keeping our gear down at the police station. RU isnt that big, so we dont mind making a small walk.

Thanks for everyone's help,

Mike

[Craig]

Mike,

STOP CALLING THEM WEAPONS!

Start practicing now. They are foils, epees, or fencing gear.

Here's a rewrite: "So we are going to run out to walmart or someothre store this weekend to by a cabinet to store our practice gear in."

Get it ingrained in your head with every communication to call the equipment something other that what will cause automatic knee-jerk reactions. Then you are re-framing the conversation which will assist you in the future.

(Think in 6 months or a year when you are negotiating for easier access to your practice gear so that you can get the club ready for an intercollegiate tournament/comptetition/meet.)


Craig

We had our meeting today with one of the deans. They have decided to allow us to fence on campus, however we have to have our advisor at all our practices.

The one thing they decided though was that we had to keep our gear at RU police department. So we are going to run out to walmart or someothre store this weekend to by a cabinet to store our weapons in.

The university has decided that our weapons our realistic replicas and that is the problem we are having now. They havent given us a defition of realistic replica though. I tried bring up that the student conduct book defines a weapon as " any object or substance designed or used to inflict a wound, cause injury or incapacitate." Their responose was that they are realistic replicas of weapons.

We are going to leave the situation alone for now and see how it goes with keeping our gear down at the police station. RU isnt that big, so we dont mind making a small walk.

Thanks for everyone's help,

Mike

[mesulater]

Mike,

STOP CALLING THEM WEAPONS!

Start practicing now. They are foils, epees, or fencing gear.


Craig

I never once called them weapons in front of the dean. I had been calling them foils and epees, and fencing gear, and equipment the whole time. It got to the point that they told me to stop trying to go around them by calling them anything but weapons.

Their words were pretty much that they are weapons, end of story.

[rburch]

so does this mean i can stop hiding all the team equipment in my car?

oh and can our advisor make the practices?

[whiteandbluefencer]

Anyway, I was wondering if any college clubs have had trouble with their faculty because they were worried about the dangers of having weapons on campus.

If so how did you resolve this issue?

No, we have the opposite situation. We have faculty members who fence right along with us!

I can't believe that there are college clubs that have problems with this! I'm the president of our club, and we've never had any issues. I'm an RA and currently have five foils and two epees in my dorm room. I'm so glad that my college is chill and laid-back about this sort of thing! Security has more important things to worry about; like bats in buildings, drunk students, and cars parked illegally.

[Orako]

If you have another meeting with someone in administration. You could being up the fact, with a demonstration, that if you picked up a pen and stabbed someone you would be charged with "Assault with a deadly weapon". Then ask is the pen a weapon or a tool just like knife sets in door rooms.

Also, don't call them weapons, I know you have done this, but refrain from it as much as you can. Call your sporting advisor and explain the situation in detail and then ask for a meeting with your highest dean you can get to, the sporting advisor and a member of campus patrol to work out some kind of arrangement other than keeping at the station. Our campus is big and there is somewhere to store equipment near the gym. But if you have personal gear, then you should have the right to keep it with you in your dorm.

[rburch]

No, we have the opposite situation. We have faculty members who fence right along with us!

I can't believe that there are college clubs that have problems with this! I'm the president of our club, and we've never had any issues. I'm an RA and currently have five foils and two epees in my dorm room. I'm so glad that my college is chill and laid-back about this sort of thing! Security has more important things to worry about; like bats in buildings, drunk students, and cars parked illegally.

we've had faculty members practice with us in the past, but that hasn't seemed to help us any. and the past couple years i've walked across campus with my foils and epees and never had any trouble from the ru police. hell i've had my theatrical rapiers out and had cops pay no more attention to me than anyone else

If you have another meeting with someone in administration. You could being up the fact, with a demonstration, that if you picked up a pen and stabbed someone you would be charged with "Assault with a deadly weapon". Then ask is the pen a weapon or a tool just like knife sets in door rooms.

Also, don't call them weapons, I know you have done this, but refrain from it as much as you can. Call your sporting advisor and explain the situation in detail and then ask for a meeting with your highest dean you can get to, the sporting advisor and a member of campus patrol to work out some kind of arrangement other than keeping at the station. Our campus is big and there is somewhere to store equipment near the gym. But if you have personal gear, then you should have the right to keep it with you in your dorm.

The last word we've received is that the dean admits they are not actual weapons (ie they are not designed to hurt people) but they are still banned under RU's weapon policy because they are replicas of weapons.

Res life has said the students that live on campus could have them in the dorms, the dean says they can't

we've asked to have the final decision in writing several times and they have yet to give it to us

even though we do have to jump through a bunch of flaming hoops to do it, they are letting us practice on campus again, so we're not gonna push our luck on the issue

[Allen Evans]

One of the things you need to think about is the long term life of this issue. I would suggest having the school paper do an article on the club to raise campus visiablity and to demonstrate that the club is an active part of campus life for those people who don't play other sports. Spring might be a good time for that, after some of this has died down. if you can get an article down every year, that would be great.

Make sure you can get a reporter who isn't going to talk about dueling (college reporters often seem to lack a great deal of imagination on this subject). Point out club members other roles at the University, and (hopefully) their academic qualfications. Some back ground to the reporter on your problems with the campus administration --lightly touched on -- might also be a good idea. Fencing needs to be illustrated as a part of campus life, and not an exception to be granted to a few "odd" students.

Much of this trouble is a response by the administration to the tragety at Tech, and that's understandable to some degree. But slowly the Administration needs to be educated that banning fencing gear on campus is the equivelent of TSA strip searching grandmothers at airports: it provides the illusion of doing something without making anyone safer.

AE

[DJ Apostrophe]

we've had faculty members practice with us in the past, but that hasn't seemed to help us any. and the past couple years i've walked across campus with my foils and epees and never had any trouble from the ru police. hell i've had my theatrical rapiers out and had cops pay no more attention to me than anyone else

Wait... wut???

So it's okay for the theater department to have REALISTIC REPLICAS? But not you guys?

That makes NO sense.

I'm sorry your administration is bat$hit crazy...

-w

[Wafath]

But slowly the Administration needs to be educated that banning fencing gear on campus is the equivalent of TSA strip searching grandmothers at airports: it provides the illusion of doing something without making anyone safer.

While I fully agree with Allen on the root cause of the problems, I would suggest not going to the press this year.

While certainly this is an illusion of security issue, there is also a power issue here. If you had lost the appeals, sure, go to the press, embarrass them, etc. However, the administration has bent, and shown you how compassionate and reasonable they can be. () This isn't the time to make an issue of it. Nor is the spring. I think this is the time to be invisible, and develop a long track record of "not a problem".

The group I think you need to convince now is the campus police/security. I wouldn't campaign them, but instead beat into your club that they are to be unfailingly polite and courteous to the police. If they ask questions about the sport, answer them fully without spin.

I think your best bet to have the administration back down in the long run is through the campus police. The next time the administration talks to the police about "fencing weapons", you want the police to roll their eyes and inform the administration that perhaps the resources of the police would be better served by focusing on other problems.

Look on the bright side... at least now you shouldn't have to worry about anyone stealing your gear between practices....

[Allen Evans]

Watath, you misunderstood my post. I advocated going to the campus press not to raise the issue of weapons on campus, but in terms of "Human Interest" and raising the visiabilty of the club and it's members. The club has to become a part of campus life, and the quicker the better.

In fact, I wouldn't raise the issue of "weapons on campus" at ALL with the school paper, EVER. The point of an article on fencing is to show fencers in a good light and as responsbile and active campus members. In time, this issue of "weapons" will raise itself again (unfortunately) and at that point, the club has controlled the message of their role on campus for a year or two, and it will be easier to get faculty and students behind the club.

Allen Evans

[foibles]

Might also refer to the sport as "Olympic Style Fencing" every time.

The word Olympic adds credibility.

The admin is making a layman's mistake. They need a Subject Matter Expert to consult with. Maybe Peter Westbrook or Micheal Marx can call 'em or sompin.

[rburch]

While I fully agree with Allen on the root cause of the problems, I would suggest not going to the press this year.

While certainly this is an illusion of security issue, there is also a power issue here. If you had lost the appeals, sure, go to the press, embarrass them, etc. However, the administration has bent, and shown you how compassionate and reasonable they can be. () This isn't the time to make an issue of it. Nor is the spring. I think this is the time to be invisible, and develop a long track record of "not a problem".

The group I think you need to convince now is the campus police/security. I wouldn't campaign them, but instead beat into your club that they are to be unfailingly polite and courteous to the police. If they ask questions about the sport, answer them fully without spin.

I think your best bet to have the administration back down in the long run is through the campus police. The next time the administration talks to the police about "fencing weapons", you want the police to roll their eyes and inform the administration that perhaps the resources of the police would be better served by focusing on other problems.

Look on the bright side... at least now you shouldn't have to worry about anyone stealing your gear between practices....

Well we contacted the police about storing the stuff there, and they haven't heard anything from the deans about it. In they don't even have any space for us to store our gear at the moment. They're going to see if they can't clear out a space for us.

The first word the police got that fencing gear was weapons was when we went and talked to them.

Wait... wut???

So it's okay for the theater department to have REALISTIC REPLICAS? But not you guys?

That makes NO sense.

Well we mentioned that we borrowed most of our loaner gear from the threater, and the dean said they were going to look into the theater having stuff. Which means they may be banning the theater too.

But the rapiers I mentioned in my post are my personal ones, I'm not involved at all in the theater at RU. I'm not even a student.

[SJCFU#2]

The first word the police got that fencing gear was weapons was when we went and talked to them.

Perhaps the administration hoped that your would simply go away.

Well we mentioned that we borrowed most of our loaner gear from the threater, and the dean said they were going to look into the theater having stuff. Which means they may be banning the theater too.

It would be interesting to see the theater department's response to such a policy, given the impact it would have on the staging of many of Shakespeare's most prominent works. An established theater company is much more likely to garner public sympathy as the victim of an well-intended policy taken to ludicrous extremes then a small fencing club who's very existence is probably unknown to most people, and they probably have a better idea how to use that support to their advantage.

Meanwhile I have to agree with Wafath - for now the best thing for you to do is keep a low profile and work on building a good relationship with campus police. They are your new, best friends on campus (possibly even more so than your faculty adviser).

[mesulater]

Actually a few of the officers said they were going to stop by our practice one of these days and try fencing with us.

[Philistine]

{snip}
It would be interesting to see the theater department's response to such a policy, given the impact it would have on the staging of many of Shakespeare's most prominent works. An established theater company is much more likely to garner public sympathy as the victim of an well-intended policy taken to ludicrous extremes then a small fencing club who's very existence is probably unknown to most people, and they probably have a better idea how to use that support to their advantage.

Yale briefly did that shortly after the Virginia Tech shooting, Link, but shortly rescinded the ban after widespread ridicule.

--Philistine