Let's Get Physical!

[RkfdFencer]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

I've seen a kid get nailed hard, and he completely lost focus. He was scared of getting hit hard again, and he was mad and wanted to inflict pain on the other fencer. What do you say to that kid as a strip coach? Or better yet, how do you train him so that he can get over it if he doesn't have anyone strip coaching him?

I think this is a better direction to take the conversation in. I have seen a younger, smaller boy get absolutely brutalized fencing sabre against an older boy roughly twice his size. Despite the pain and tears, the younger boy kept fencing. He had started off winning the calls, but ended up losing the bout. I do not recall if his coach was present (happened at least a few years ago).

How likely is a heavy handed fencer to be carded these days, without prompting from the opponent or a coach?

[epeelion]

There are legal, ethical ways of breaking peoples' concentrations. For instance, fleshing to their mask. Closing distance when they fleshe. Yelling. Toe touches, even. Light body contact.

This is NOT the same as saying "I flick people on the hand, but purposely do it wrong so that the point is to make their arm numb".

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Heh.

I prefer to spend my time scoring points.

But sometimes, you just have to chop with the edge at the dudes wrist.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by epeelion

For instance, fleshing to their mask.

That usually increases my concentration, as long as I didn't get my bell rung. I get hit in the mask, I assume I wasn't paying enough attention and did something stupid.

But I try to fence better fencers who don't need to do that kind of crap.

Unless you're pretty far up the chain, I would think you'd want to improve your fencing by having your opponent be on top of their game as well.

[KD5MDK]

epeelion is a pretty good fencer.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

epeelion is a pretty good fencer.

He is actually a big bully, and constantly steals my lunch money.



R-

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

epeelion is a pretty good fencer.

I should have said "don't need to do that kind of crap against someone like me".

Hmm...even with that correction, it still comes out wrong. Sorry.

[epeelion]

Hehe, no offense taken, I should have clarified what I meant. Hitting/fleshing to the mask is particularly effective when you have an opponent who likes to be rough and/or run at you. It breaks the rhythm, and makes the opponent more wary of entering your distance. The same is true in foil, actually, though it won't get you a touch. It's a way of saying "back off".

In a 15-touch bout, it doesn't even have to get you a touch. It can be purely based on gamesmanship. However, you are not attempting to injure your opponent, and it is completely legal.

Trust me, it does work. Example: Alex Tsinis. He uses this to great effect, as piste off can also verify. It's not a noob move, it's a way of imposing your will, both physically and psychologically, without actually trying to injure your opponent.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by epeelion

Trust me, it does work. Example: Alex Tsinis. He uses this to great effect, as piste off can also verify. It's not a noob move, it's a way of imposing your will, both physically and psychologically, without actually trying to injure your opponent.

I agree, I've seen lots of mental meltdowns through gamesmanship, physical and otherwise. It can be it's own fun game. I prefer more subtle tactics, but I'm not afraid of throwing in a little body contact to set a tone.

I've seen the egregious physical stuff work to a certain extent as well, but it usually only works against weaker fencers. Why bother getting in their head when you can just hit them? And the nasty stuff also has a tendency to come back around once the reputation is there.

[epeelion]

Exactly. Most higher level fencers don't bother too much with the mental games if they don't have to. However, when they fence other high level fencers, everything from strip attitude to touch selection can have an effect. And the egregious physical stuff, as you said, comes back to bite you in the ass more often than not.

I agree also that the subtler stuff is more enjoyable. Where you keep someone on the strip, how you interact with the ref, how you act during the breaks, what you say before the bout, etc.

I honestly can't wait for someone like black card to fence, say Justin Meehan or alternatively one of the army guys. That will be a smackdown of epic proportions.

[Bryn Ralph]

The more people who respond to "Black Card," the more they encourage his braggadocchio.

Cease and desist.

Bryn Ralph

[epeelion]

Aww, but now we're having a fun discussion without any trollish interruptions! ::whine::

I agree, though. Perhaps a new "On Gamesmanship" thread is in order?

[Purple Fencer]

Sometimesa hard hit may not be entirely intentional....I sold a new Prieur FIE epee blade to a teammate, and I would rather NOT have a noob use it on me...the damn thing's stiff as rebar!

Victor has the experience and skill to hit and not put the blade through me...a newbie who's trying desperately to hit something other than air is going to hit harder, just out of the extra effort.

But deliberately causing injury just because you can? You're outta here.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

In my humble 'sperience fencers like "BC" are cowards and will try their crap against kids and girls,
when a much better, stronger and faster opponent comes up they're petrified to intimidate them, since they are intimidated before they even plug in.

[IvorDarcy]

Thanks KD5MDK. What a difference in this forum when you ignore the kids, idiots, uneducated and people who have nothing to say but just want their post count to go up. There are a couple of threads on here where there are about 40 posts and I can only see two of them! Now I can just read the well thought out arguments/debates instead of having to wade through crap.

[headcut]

Originally Posted by epeelion

... Hitting/fleshing to the mask is particularly effective when you have an opponent who likes to be rough and/or run at you. It breaks the rhythm, and makes the opponent more wary of entering your distance... It's a way of saying "back off".

Trust me, it does work. Example: Alex Tsinis. He uses this to great effect, as piste off can also verify. It's not a noob move, it's a way of imposing your will, both physically and psychologically, without actually trying to injure your opponent.

As a sabre fencer, I've done this a few times when my opponent thinks he's intimidating me with rough touches and contact. We used to call it "Standing Him Up". When he moves in for an attack, the guard comes out to the mask and he pretty much stands straight up on the contact. Usually no words are exchanged unless he's complaining to the ref... but as a "simultaneous attack" nothing is called on the series. All you have to do is stare him down and he'll get the point. Most of these types of fencers are bullies who think they're tough until someone stands them up. Then it's a different story. They're usually pretty poor fencers trying to make up for lack of skill.

I don't advocate this type of fencing, but if someone wants to hurt you or intimidate you with contact and rough touches, you need to address it and put them in their place. And yes it really does break their rhythm and changes the bout immediately. Also, they're usually surprised that someone would do that to them! Can you imagine that?

[telkanuru]

A well aimed flick to the side of the mask is absolutely ear-ringing.

My personal favorite is, if you lunge short and are taken in 6, yield to prime as they come forward and recover up. This slams the point into their chest, looks really fast and cool, and is pretty psychologically devastating.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

A well aimed flick to the side of the mask is absolutely ear-ringing.

My personal favorite is, if you lunge short and are taken in 6, yield to prime as they come forward and recover up. This slams the point into their chest, looks really fast and cool, and is pretty psychologically devastating.

Those require way too much technique.

I prefer using an epee weight as a yawara stick, applied against the knee or testicles.

R-

[dtcaslick]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

A well aimed flick to the side of the mask is absolutely ear-ringing.

My personal favorite is, if you lunge short and are taken in 6, yield to prime as they come forward and recover up. This slams the point into their chest, looks really fast and cool, and is pretty psychologically devastating.

Interesting...I'll have to remember that. Of course, I'm probably too new to actually pull it off correctly, but it's interesting none-the-less.


Todd

[xroflcopterx]

one: if this is the only way you can score touches by inflicting pain so your opponent is weaker then thats a little sad
two:fencers arent mentally tough as football or baseball players? get this dumbass ive had more injuries than you can count no they werent all from fencing but still they happened i never stepped on a baseball or football field in my life
so dont tell me just bc i dont enjoy sports like that im not mentally tough
besides i dont enjoy getting drunk and ****ing everything that moves like most football players that i know at least
youre an idiot inflicking pain is only a sign that you cant fence using your ****ing brain and its all about the muscle power
if thats what you want to do fine go right ahead but it wont get you very far

Originally Posted by black card

I agree with you. I think overuse of any questionable tactic would quickly render it useless. I guess I just believe that once in a great while these tactics have been effective because:

1. they work on a purely mechanical level by inflicting pain on a part of the body.

2. fencing, more than other sports I have played, have a contingent of people that are not mentally tough. Not everyone, of course. Just more than say, football or baseball.