How to Win Against Pommelers

[chinbeard]

This weekend, I went to my first large fencing tournament, and saw a great deal of people pommeling their epees. I fenced two of them. Both times, the results were less than stellar (one shut-out). Granted, I still probably would have lost to them if they were using orthos (I'm not normally a good fencer, and I'm even worse at tournaments when I get nervous), but I really had NO idea what to do. Any suggestions? ...I've been fencing for 8 months already, and I don't even have an E, which I think I could have gotten if I had gotten past those two fencers.

[noodle]

pommelers use distance, timing, reach advantage, and avoid blade contact.

if you want to find success, you need to step up your distance and timing, and force blade contact in order to overcome the reach.

edit: "in general", of course. each person is different, each game is different.

[KD5MDK]

If you'd gotten past the guy who won the tournament, yeah, you'd probably get an E.

Edit: I was wrong. The guy who won the tournament is the one who you didn't score on. The pommeler you lost your DE to only made it to the 8.

[Guymelef]

Pommelers rely on two things, the three or so inch extra reach of their weapon and suckering you into attacking their more-exposed hand. The trick is to make them attack you. If they try forcing you back with the footwork game then 'check' them by attacking at their guard. Even if you don't hit, you will stop their advance and (if done quickly) set-up for another action.

Pommelers who have mastered an accurate flick are a truly deadly opponent. Basically, if you are in distance and your hand is low, expect that to be coming. To carry on noodle's point, you have got to bind the blade in a good opposition, thereby neutralizing the pommeler's advantage. If you are taking private lessons ask your coach to do some lessons with him as a pommeler. You are right they are confounding, but expect to meet them often enough.

[HDG]

I've been fencing for 8 months already

No, you've only been fencing for 8 months.

[JEC]

I wasn't there, but I know three of the pommelers that were in the tournament and finished on top 8. All 3 are A's. Despite finishing #8, Reed is the most consistent top Epee fencer in the section who is competing in our regional tournaments. Just check in AskFred, the SSCC results for the past 5 years. Kelley and Meehan also pommels their french and LP grips, respectively. It would be incredibly unlikely that you could beat any of them even if they don't pommel or they were using pistol grips. Kelley and Meehan use their long reach fairly effectively while having great point control. Robert is a more physical fencer who is strong and able to take oppositions while still pommeling.

[Nolano]

This weekend, I went to my first large fencing tournament, and saw a great deal of people pommeling their epees. I fenced two of them. Both times, the results were less than stellar (one shut-out). Granted, I still probably would have lost to them if they were using orthos (I'm not normally a good fencer, and I'm even worse at tournaments when I get nervous), but I really had NO idea what to do. Any suggestions? ...I've been fencing for 8 months already, and I don't even have an E, which I think I could have gotten if I had gotten past those two fencers.

I'm one of those people where everyone was shocked to hear I'd only been fencing 8 months. I still didn't get my E until just over a year. Be patient and wait for it.

Oh, and I don't want to say you CAN'T beat an A, but it's not likely at this point. The first time I beat an A in a tournament, I'd been fencing 14 months, and it was the first time I'd ever beaten anyone over a C rating.
Don't have ridiculous expectations for yourself at this point. But also don't limit yourself.

[telkanuru]

Pommelers rely on two things, the three or so inch extra reach of their weapon and suckering you into attacking their more-exposed hand. The trick is to make them attack you. If they try forcing you back with the footwork game then 'check' them by attacking at their guard. Even if you don't hit, you will stop their advance and (if done quickly) set-up for another action.

This is funny. Please do this every time you fence me. I would hate it. No seriously great tactic. Works 100% of the time. I'm totally not being sarcastic.

I rely on my superior control of distance and timing to beat my opponents.

I have a feeling the OP's losing has little to do with the grip and a lot to do with the level of his opponents. What you need to do to get by similar opponents is to work more with a coach and get better at fencing. No magic bullet.

[foillion]

This is funny. Please do this every time you fence me. I would hate it. No seriously great tactic. Works 100% of the time. I'm totally not being sarcastic.

How bout I just hit you with a car instead then?

-P

[black card]

I wasn't there, but I know three of the pommelers that were in the tournament and finished on top 8. All 3 are A's. Despite finishing #8, Reed is the most consistent top Epee fencer in the section who is competing in our regional tournaments. Just check in AskFred, the SSCC results for the past 5 years. Kelley and Meehan also pommels their french and LP grips, respectively. It would be incredibly unlikely that you could beat any of them even if they don't pommel or they were using pistol grips. Kelley and Meehan use their long reach fairly effectively while having great point control. Robert is a more physical fencer who is strong and able to take oppositions while still pommeling.

Reed also switches between french and ortho depending on the bout too. I will echo the sentiment that a fencer like him would have likely beat you if he were just holding onto the tang. Get better and solutions to styles become more apparent.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Hang in there, Chinbeard. Listen to JEC; he knows his fencers. That must have been a well-rated tournament considering who was there. Don't lose confidence, and get ready for the mid-October rating-restricted tournament Clear Lake is putting on. You'll have a better change of getting your first letter at this event than the last.

As others have said, pommelers are using distance and timing. You are tall, so you already have an advantage there. Work on your stregnth and avoid exposing your arm to stop thrusts. At 8 months, most people are still considered beginners; don't get discouraged!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

You really need to get better all around before you start worrying about beating specific fencers.

[tchwojko]

You really need to get better all around before you start worrying about beating specific fencers.

One way to get better all around is to pick a technique and tactic your opponent is doing, and remove that threat. Once you've figured out how to remove that threat effectively, you can move on to the next one. Eventually, people have to work rather hard to hit you.

[Cookeit]

I'm a foilist, but I'd imagine strong beats and binds which make sure not to bring his point in to you, would work really well.

[tchwojko]

I'm a foilist, but I'd imagine strong beats and binds which make sure not to bring his point in to you, would work really well.

Quite the reverse. A strong blade movement is not necessary because if you do manage to get your opponents' blade, you'll have better leverage anyway. A strong movement opens up the hand and arm exactly the way a pommeler wants it.

The issue is touching their blade at all. Distance, timing and patience are much more relevant for that goal.

[whtouche]

Interestingly enough I think telk actually offered the best advice in this whole thread. Not being an epee fencer myself (or even a fencer at all the last few months) I won't pretend to know the intricacies of epee tactics but working with a coach, practicing, and getting better overall is always a good strategy. That said, while a reality check is worthwhile sometimes, I don't know how useful it is for everyone on this thread to say "o don't worry, you wouldn't have won anyways"

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

One way to get better all around is to pick a technique and tactic your opponent is doing, and remove that threat. Once you've figured out how to remove that threat effectively, you can move on to the next one. Eventually, people have to work rather hard to hit you.

Yeah, that is one way to get better, but its pretty ineffective if you've been fencing for 8 months and don't really even know the game.

Theres a time for figuring how to beat certain types. But that time is not when you're still trippin over your own two feet. You've gotta learn to walk before you can fly an airplane.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I don't know about the other guys, but ask Meehan to tell you the Russian joke. He'll be laughing so hard, he may have a hard time concentrating on the bout.

Unfortunately, so will you.

[tchwojko]

Yeah, that is one way to get better, but its pretty ineffective if you've been fencing for 8 months and don't really even know the game.

Theres a time for figuring how to beat certain types. But that time is not when you're still trippin over your own two feet. You've gotta learn to walk before you can fly an airplane.

Chances are, anything you recognize as a technique or tactic is about the same level as what you can practice. I think asking yourself "How did I just get hit?" and then doing something about it is pretty much always a valid pedagogical tool. Even if you come up with the wrong answer, learning how to analyze the bout is also a good tool, regardless of experience level.

[seven6ty]

Don't get hit.