Long term personal fencing development

[Molinjir]

This is re-posted from introductions, as this seemed a more appropriate venue for said question

I got into this wonderful sport about a year ago, got myself a very good coach, and threw myself into it with tremendous enjoyment.
I suffered/still suffer, from many of the fault of the beginning fencer, especially as far as fine-motor-skill actions go (more difficult second, third intention, repeated disengages, timing counter riposte, etc.). However, I think I have a reasonably good head for the sport, and I'm 6'5" and left-handed, in addition to being skinny as a rail. I obsessively watched videos and every good fencer I could find, and came up with a sort of methodology for myself to follow.

I taught myself to flick, reasonably well, barring backflicks, achieved a decent sense of distance and timing, figured out some odd angulated sorts of attack, and focused primarily on marching attacks, with the occasionally counter-attack with opp, stop-hit, or sweeping circle parry to cover my butt.
I very recently obtained my C, from U, and have had a reasonably good time beating a variety of fencers, up to a fairly high level, which leads me to my question.
My coach has not taught me any of my main bout strategy. We still work (not that I'm complaining about it, as I desperately need it) primarily on point control, setting up actions, and that sort of thing (disengage heavy, lots of second intention, etc.). Presumably he will eventually begin on flicks, and other such things when I have a better command of the basics, but I am curious as to how this odd sort of two-pronged approach to improving my fencing will end up. I'm pursuing the proper course of study, for the time i've been fencing and my skills, but simultaneously, experimenting (flicking, marching attacks, etc.) with much more effective competitive results. Is this an effective method?


I know that very tall fencers (ie cassara, a personal favorite), often tend to rely on marches, big preparations, and counterattacks, leaving the high-speed, elegant bladework for the smaller fencer. As a long term plan for my development as a fencer (which will hopefully end up at least on a national level) is my current approach feasible? I'm aware of the stigma against newer-newish fencers flicking, but I'm comfortable with relatively painless chest and shoulder flicks, with very little smacking and bashing and other such unpleasant stuff.


Should I be, even at the 1 year mark, be basing my training and general approach on a "tall" person strategy? Or is it still essential for my general development to learn to execute all actions on as high a level possible?
I know that every basic action should be ingrained even to the subconscious level, but actual bout tactics for lessons are more the general subject.

Sorry for such a convoluted, indulgent question,

~P

[Steve Khinoy]

You haven't said yet how old you are or what your dream goal is. Your plan for yourself will be influenced by how much time you realistically have.

[Molinjir]

Well, I'm 16, I have in theory until university age to get to a certain level, in order to fence for a Div I school ideally. So I have approximately two years to reach a level of high competency.
My aspirations? As high as possible, hopefully at least nationally, ideally greater still.

[erooMynohtnA]

I think you're confusing simple actions with complex situations.

A flick is an action, a marching attack is a situation. You generally need that good action (flick) to get into that situation (marching attack). If you can't finish the attack with a disengage, flick, angulation, counter riposte, or whatever no one is going to let you march.

I also think you're not seeing what makes a successful fencer compared to what he just uses successfully. For everything you see him do, there are ten things he could do just as well. Don't fall too much in love with the actions top fencers take, because it's not the actions themselves that make them successful, it's the setup.

As to whether or not you should be experimenting with stuff, I think you should. You're not a robot. You have to figure out what you like for your own personal style.

That being said, your coach has taken you from a U to a C fairly quickly (maybe not that hard for a 6'5" lefty), so I'd probably keep doing what he says. Just talk to him about any questions you have. Ask him when he'll teach the flick or start working on tactics with you.

[Steve Khinoy]

Continue with your double approach -- technical lessons that focus on the basics; bouts that give you competition experience.

You can't develop an adequate technical base in just one year, so keep on trying to groove the accepted, correct moves and reactions. Don't be impatient to learn advanced tactics. As Anthony said, top fencing depends on having a full repertory of techniques to choose from, even if you're only going to rely on a very few of them.

If you rush past a good technical basis, you will hit a fairly low ceiling. The most basic things -- good en garde, good footwork, good point control, good feel for the blade -- take longest to relearn once bad habits have become ingrained.

[Molinjir]

Thank you for the response.

I do know the difference between a march and a flick (my initial post was rather confusingly worded), but i will freely admit that my technical knowledge is somewhat limited.
Steve, your response gets to the heart of my issues, which is simply trying to take the time to "groove the accepted, correct moves and reactions". My issue remains though that I can't win with my basics training, so I do other things. I still worry that this will be a long term problem, if the two don't end up meshing well. (as a side note, I do about 15 minutes of point control drills a day, along with 20-40 min of footwork if possible, so I should ideally keep those two in decent check)

As far as watching top fencers, I do it to the extent that I look for their solutions to specific problems, not to directly copy every aspect of a fencer's performance. Additionally, my C was earned fencing with these more experimental methods, as opposed to the straight actions, parry, riposte, timed counter riposte etc. sort of thing that my coach is currently drilling me in. I guess the extension of my question is then if this sort of reliance on specific techniques for actual bouting will eventually be a weakness.
I currently think pretty much within the mindset as follows:
March
in which my final actions are usually a shoulder flick or some sort of angulation, or some sort of parry-riposte, depending on if it flops,
and defensive, in which I primarily counterattack with opposition or occasionally parry-riposte.
obviously, if given the opportunity, I'll hit any way I can, but straight disengages rarely figure into my fencing, unless part of a compound riposte. This is clearly a simplification of whatever confusing muddle actually goes on in my head, but I find myself increasingly utilizing variations on this pattern, with different preps and distance and such, but still different outcomes from the same base.
I suppose I should just ask more questions of my coach, but there is a slight communications barrier (i'm verbose, his english is near perfect but there is occasionally a bit that slips through the cracks in our exchanges)

[erooMynohtnA]

Sounds like you're doing everything right. Don't worry too much about having success with actions you haven't been taught. The best fencers are up there due to their ability to improvise.

There's a chance that you're simply having success because you're hard to fence when you do weird stuff, and that won't work at a higher level. So long as you're still working from a sound technical base, that shouldn't be a problem, because you'll be able to rely on basics if your flicks aren't working or something.

[Steve Khinoy]

I understand your uneasiness -- it seems like following contradictory courses. But if you are going to go into competition in your first year, and if you are going to try to win bouts, you are following the only course possible. You could try to practice the actions you have learned while fencing in competition, but you wouldn't be able to execute them -- yet. So you are doing what works for you, plus, if you are paying attention (which is hard for most first-year fencers!) you are developing a sense of timing and distance that's hard to get from lessons.

See where you are in a year.

Good luck!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Go fence a Div I NAC.

That will change your opinion about everything.

[Phrogger]

Sounds like you are getting a good basic fencing education with your current coach and are highly motivated to continue learning.

Like already mentioned here, it's best to get as wide a repertoire now as possible and not try to specialize until later. Trying to focus on one area now will limit your development for the long term. Perfecting the basics, learning as many different techniques as possible, and using all of them in competition (experimenting) will prepare you best for the long term. Trying for results too soon may come at the expense of success down the road, when you are too set in your ways to change.*

Stick with your program, read as much as possible, treat your competitions as learning opportunities, attend camps and take any opportunity for a lesson from a new coach that you can get. Good luck!

*Much of this advice is echoed in Johann Harmenberg's excellent Epee 2.0 which is a good read for any fencer, not just epeeists.

[KD5MDK]

Go fence a Div I NAC.

That will change your opinion about everything.

There's a Junior NAC even earlier. NAC B would be a great learning opportunity for you.

[Grasshopper]

Bottom line is you have to do everything well. Cassara, and most high level fencers in all weapons can do everything well, whether you realize that or not is another issue.

[Craig]

Realize that you need the technical training. At the higher levels, all of the fencers can execute their actions with a high level of precision. In Understanding Fencing there is a chapter discussing the technical vs. tactical fencer.

If you're really into learning theories behind fencing, it's a good book. It's dense, however, so you'll need to be awake to read it and also break it up into chunks.

For the tactical / strategic side of the game, study the bouts in the videos you watch. What do the fencers do to get out of a rut, or to set up a future action? What are the strengths of the fencers, and what tactics are used to counteract those strengths? Studying that will help you piece together your own tactical game for competitions.

Craig

[OMCEPKEN]

the world is full of world class fencers who didn't start until their 20s.
you're doing fine...keep working and develop your own style.
work on your basics with your current coach
find others who will take you further

[Grasshopper]

the world is full of world class fencers who didn't start until their 20s.

It is?

[Molinjir]

Thank you for all the helpful responses- just to further my question a bit, are there actually conventions as to what actions should be focused upon as a "tall" or "short" fencer? Obviously, a tall fencer attempts to keep the distance greater, and such things, but as far as specific technical concerns go (ie blade actions, and preparations and such), is there some sort of basis for "A tall fencer should avoid doing X because it places him at a disadvantage because of his longer reach, etc." I know this is a rather confusingly worded question, but thanks in advance for those who wade through the muck of my statements to help

[KD5MDK]

That's for your coach to decide.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

(as a side note, I do about 15 minutes of point control drills a day, along with 20-40 min of footwork if possible, so I should ideally keep those two in decent check)

IMHO - neither is enough at all for your aspirations, also make sure that both , as well as, physical buildup is done with proper supervision, in order to ensure progress, and avoid injuries. It sounds like you have progressed extremely well though, and still have a lot of natural growth curve to ride.
ALSO YOU HAVE NOT MENTIONED HOW OFTEN you work out, and exercise.
Before advancing further into tactics - try experimenting with different tempos; then with distance - simplest moves can be extremely successful if executed perfectly, with great attention paid to the above.
6'5" and not fencing epee is a touch odd tho', especially if you have explosive feet.

[Molinjir]

eh, I swim or run 3-4 times a week, plus, pushups, situps, a little weight training (I'm going to start working with a trainer soon as well)
Additionally, the 20/40 min is off-season, when I have regular school or club related practices it's considerably more.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

off-season

IMHO - there is no such thing