McCain's VP

[KidLazy]

Uh, drilling is all about energy. Oil is a cheap, plentiful source of energy, so why not use it? Energy prices affect the prices of everything, so it's in our best interest to provide cheap and plentiful energy.

Sure, maybe the oil we pump out of Alaska is a fairly small amount in the big scheme of things...so what? The amount of energy you save by switching to compact fluorescent bulbs is small, especially considering the extra (unsubsidized) cost of the bulb and the dangers or the mercury they contain...so why don't the people arguing against drilling advocate mandating use of them? Because every little bit helps, and pumping this oil helps provide energy to the US in addition to all the benefits of jobs and increased commerce.

What are you smokiing!? It must be really good.
With the money and blood spent over oil... Oil is very expensive. Also, it is getting harder and harder to get to a deposit while easy accessible ones are drying up. At this point the return no longer justify the cost anymore.

Do you know what's cheap and plenty? Sunlight. And my Solar Project (ok, I am only a team member... but...) will save the world.

[Grimaldi]

Do you know what's cheap and plenty? Sunlight. And my Solar Project (ok, I am only a team member... but...) will save the world.

Cheap and (basically) infinite, sure...but the equipment to harness it efficiently, and the space it takes, is fairly expensive. You'll note even very environmentally friendly nations don't rely on solar energy for more than a fraction of their energy production. Why else would solar energy be so heavily subsidized? If it was such an easy, money making venture, private enterprise would have been all over it by now.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to research and invest in...long term, it will pay off as a useful technology, but to claim it is somehow even remotely competitive with fossil fuels is ridiculous.

[lindajdunn]

At the RNC, there were many snarky remarks made about community organizers. You know, those ramblerousers that do stupid little things like food drives, community soup kitchens, organizing people to build parks in vacant lots, etc.

Anyway, I thought I would put things in perspective with this comment, stolen from a friend:

Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor.

[KidLazy]

Cheap and (basically) infinite, sure...but the equipment to harness it efficiently, and the space it takes, is fairly expensive. You'll note even very environmentally friendly nations don't rely on solar energy for more than a fraction of their energy production. Why else would solar energy be so heavily subsidized? If it was such an easy, money making venture, private enterprise would have been all over it by now.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to research and invest in...long term, it will pay off as a useful technology, but to claim it is somehow even remotely competitive with fossil fuels is ridiculous.

Only if I could show you the new prototype, only if I could show you the new prototype... (stupid security! )

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Has anyone paid attention to the issues behind the news versus looking for dirt?

She attended 5 or 6 colleges in 5-6 years before graduating with a degree in journalism without any evidence of having done any work in journalism while a student. That's a little worrisome but no big deal since young adults often need some time to find their path and she did work for a year in her degree after graduation.

In her campaign for mayor in a small town, she made right-to-life the issue.

As mayor, she enacted a tax to pay for an expensive sportscomplex and pushed it through. Good? Well... there's this little matter of not bothering to sign the sale papers for the land on which they planned to build. Someone else bought it. The town sued, the court ruled in the town's favor and they started building despite the appeal. The judge reversed himself on the ground that... well... they hadn't SIGNED the papers. The town used eminent domain. The court ruled the town had a right to do this.

Last year, the arbitrator ordered the city to pay $836,378 for the 80-acre parcel, far more than the $126,000 Wasilla originally thought it would pay for a piece of land 65 acres larger. The owner has appealed, arguing that she should have been awarded interest. It's been 10 years.

Oops. I forgot.
She ran for re-election with a promise to take a cut in pay. She did. She cut her pay from $78,000 to $74,000 and hired someone to handle some of the workload.

Because you've missed the obvious. Drilling is NOT about energy; it's about creating high paying blue collar jobs in America and winning votes.

Creating alternate energy sources will generate few jobs and most of those in highly specialized fields.

Linda, I contend that YOU are the one missing the obvious.

You are arguing against SP on the topics of lackluster academic results, small-town pork-spreading, hiring extra people to do her stuff, tings like that.

While I agree with you that those are valid issues, we are not the people to convince. Both of us are rooting for Obama anyway! A good argument is one that convinces a person - who previously was in favor of her - to vote against, or at least stay home come voting day.

But then you must find an argument in which it is shown that she has failed, from a conservative point of view.

Yes, there are undecided voters. But I am fairly sure that their decision will be made based on larger issues than non-criminal personal weaknesses, and small-town backrub politics. Heck, stuff similar to the sports complex affair happens in every other county each election cycle!

To win over people, you must argue based on their perspectives, not simply assume that they share your own. Push the AIP angle instead!


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Epee_Pox]

At the RNC, there were many snarky remarks made about community organizers. You know, those ramblerousers that do stupid little things like food drives, community soup kitchens, organizing people to build parks in vacant lots, etc.

Anyway, I thought I would put things in perspective with this comment, stolen from a friend:

Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor.

Ah, but a community organizer in Chicago is a whole nother matter. Obama's job was not to do food drives, soup kitchens, or anything of the sort.

Obama's community-organizing organization existed, in its own words, "to revive the region's manufacturing base -- and preserve what remained of its steel industry -- by working with unions and church groups to pressure companies and the city." This did not work. These tactics did not entice businesses to locate in that area. Among other things, businesses were reluctant to put themselves in a situation where they would be pressured by unions, church groups and community organizers. And of course, the community was not exactly conducive to safe, profitable business.

Obama joined the organization as its original push was failing, so he tried a slightly different tactic. Instead of organizing the community to be more approachable and enticing to businesses that would create jobs, however, he "organized" community members into demanding a job center that would provide job referrals. This did not work, because first you need jobs to refer, and there simply weren't very many there.

Still not getting that the community was the problem, not the businesses, he next set about trying to get shops, restaurants and theaters to locate there. But they were reluctant to open there for the same reasons as manufacturers.

After that failed, Obama shifted his focus entirely. Now he worked on improvements to a local housing project. Obama helped the project's residents demand that the city do basic maintenance like plumbing and window repair, and to promise (though not carry out the promise) to remove asbestos.

At last, Obama looked back on years of failure after failure, and decided that community organizing was a waste of time. In 1989, he spoke at a symposium where he "rejected the guiding principles of community organizing: the elevation of self-interest over moral vision; the disdain for charismatic leaders and their movements; and the suspicion of politics itself." He decided it made little sense to spend his life trying to take people so abjectly dependent that they needed the government to repair their toilets and windows for them (and do pretty much everything else for them, too), and organize them into a powerful voice to wring concessions from shops and manufacturers. Instead, he said, to get results one had to be either an elected official or someone influential with elected officials. So he went to law school.

It's admirable that he learned this lesson. It's strange that now, so many years later, he's holding up the failures he learned from as a qualification for office. He's got so much more going for him, but this heavy reliance on the community organizing days is just weak.

[Grimaldi]

Hi!
But then you must find an argument in which it is shown that she has failed, from a conservative point of view.

Yes, there are undecided voters. But I am fairly sure that their decision will be made based on larger issues than non-criminal personal weaknesses, and small-town backrub politics. Heck, stuff similar to the sports complex affair happens in every other county each election cycle!

To win over people, you must argue based on their perspectives, not simply assume that they share your own. Push the AIP angle instead!

I think you'll have a hard time attacking her on conservative principals. Even if such issues exist, and you manage to convince most Republicans of them, she always has the ultimate fallback...she's just the VP nominee and will follow McCain's example.

The Republican base is pretty energized, and there's not much time to impact that anymore. The independent voters are the prime target of both parties now, and many of them don't vote on issues as much as perceived character of the candidates. Unless something new and big comes out, the stuff that is currently out there won't be enough to derail Palin, but will manage to keep the media's attention on her...that only hurts Obama.

At the RNC, there were many snarky remarks made about community organizers. You know, those ramblerousers that do stupid little things like food drives, community soup kitchens, organizing people to build parks in vacant lots, etc.

Snide remarks because Obama keeps mocking Palin's lack of experience, but often refers to his time as a "community organizer" as meaningful experience for his presidential run. As mentioned above, his stint as a community organizer accomplished nothing of significance...just like the rest of his political career. Considering politics s pretty much the only job experience he has, that's pretty sad.

And please feel free to keep using the "Jesus was a community organizer" line. As if there weren't enough jokes floating around about Obama having a Messiah complex...that will just continue to maintain that meme.

[pigeonmeister]

"Democrat Mr Obama was favoured by a four-to-one margin across the 22,500 people polled in 22 countries."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7606100.stm

[To_The_Point]

So what?

Their (other countries) opinions don't matter here.

[fencerchica]

And please feel free to keep using the "Jesus was a community organizer" line. As if there weren't enough jokes floating around about Obama having a Messiah complex...that will just continue to maintain that meme.

Yeah, let's talk about messiah complexes. Sarah Palin says the war in Iraq is the will of God. "Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord."

[KidLazy]

So what?

Their (other countries) opinions don't matter here.

They do because we need to work with them in the future.
The arrogant self-center way of doing things has bring nothing but trouble for this country and its people, while doing the same for other countries as well.

[Epee_Pox]

Yeah, let's talk about messiah complexes. Sarah Palin says the war in Iraq is the will of God. "Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord."

Oh please, not that again. Why don't you read her actual quote, instead of the typical bowdlerization it gets from left-leaning bloggers. All she said was, pray that what they're fighting for is what God wants done. In other words, pray that they're there for the right reasons, and not being sent into danger for the wrong reasons.

One would think the left would applaud such a sentiment. One might almost think that they don't applaud it because they don't agree with it... unless it's voiced by someone who agrees with their other positions. But that would mean that they are cheap and shallow in their beliefs, adhering more to group identity than to underlying principals.

[fencerchica]

Oh please, not that again. Why don't you read her actual quote, instead of the typical bowdlerization it gets from left-leaning bloggers.

Don't mind if I do. "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God."

All she said was, pray that what they're fighting for is what God wants done. In other words, pray that they're there for the right reasons, and not being sent into danger for the wrong reasons.

How you get that bland interpretation from the black-and-white of "a task that is from God" beats me. One would almost think that you're willing to turn a blind eye to the right wing invoking the will of the divine to support wastefully jeopardizing our troops and the health of the military as a whole.

One might almost think that they don't applaud it because they don't agree with it... unless it's voiced by someone who agrees with their other positions. But that would mean that they are cheap and shallow in their beliefs, adhering more to group identity than to underlying principals.

Interesting... one might almost think that you are accusing anyone who puts the well-being of the troops and the country first, and therefore opposes the war in Iraq, of not being a patriot.

============================

Edited to add: Epee_Pox, your defense, as I understand it, hinges on the weakly implied question in her speech as to whether the war is really "a task from God". However, given that Palin's party used lies in order to bring about this war five years ago, whereas this quote from her is from three months ago, it is grossly disingenuous. The time to ask that question was then (and the answer is obviously NO). This is like me starting a pointless fistfight with someone because I thought it would make you think I was cool, continuing it for five years, and then calling over to you to pray that it's God's will that I did it.

On top of all that, to even venture to couch the war in Iraq in terms of a holy war is horrifying even if she were open to the idea that the answer were "no". It is imperative that a politician see a war in terms of the best interest of their country, not in terms of the will of the divine.

[latenight]

At the RNC, there were many snarky remarks made about community organizers. You know, those ramblerousers that do stupid little things like food drives, community soup kitchens, organizing people to build parks in vacant lots, etc.

Anyway, I thought I would put things in perspective with this comment, stolen from a friend:

Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor.

Likewise, I saw one today that said:

Hitler was a community organizer. Jesus was a maverick.

Don't you love politics?

[dcmdale]

Don't mind if I do. "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God."

There are many things in this thread that would bother some voters. This one is borderline hysteria.

The Bible commands prayer for national leaders. The Bible commands prayer for national leadership whether or not the church likes the national leaders. (When the command was written, Roman leadership was feeding Christians to the lions).

This quote, both as transcribed and as delivered, is a simple prayer for wisdom. Wisdom for our military in trying to do what is right. Wisdom for national leaders that in sending soldiers out that they are in fact doing God's will.

If you don't believe in God, this may sound silly and her belief in God might give you are reason to like Obama, but a prayer like this is hardly politically radical. I have heard left-leaning pastors give much the same prayer. Indeed, if you disagree with national leaders, how much more would you pray that they obtain wisdom?

[fencerchica]

There are many things in this thread that would bother some voters. This one is borderline hysteria.

The Bible commands prayer for national leaders. The Bible commands prayer for national leadership whether or not the church likes the national leaders. (When the command was written, Roman leadership was feeding Christians to the lions).

Ugh. You are mising the point. A fairer analogy would be a Roman official who decides to feed Christians to lions, keeps it up for five years, and then says, "Oh by the way, Christians, pray that I'm doing God's will." Shouldn't he have asked that five years ago? Isn't the fact that he's still doing it and strenuously advocating the continuation of it proof that he doesn't sincerely question it himself? He's just trying to look good.

This quote, both as transcribed and as delivered, is a simple prayer for wisdom. Wisdom for our military in trying to do what is right. Wisdom for national leaders that in sending soldiers out that they are in fact doing God's will.

*facepalm* This quote was carefully aimed propaganda for the consumption of the Christian elements of the GOP base. Evidently you swallowed it as well.

If you don't believe in God, this may sound silly and her belief in God might give you are reason to like Obama, but a prayer like this is hardly politically radical.

Belief in God is not an excuse for perceiving wars as black-and-white holy wars instead of deeply cynical (even if occasionally necessary) international struggles for dominance (and political points). Doing so is superlatively dangerous.

I have heard left-leaning pastors give much the same prayer. Indeed, if you disagree with national leaders, how much more would you pray that they obtain wisdom?

Sarah Palin was not a (theoretically) neutral pastor. She is part and parcel of the party / political wing which has been pushing this was from the beginning. For her to pass this off, or for you to accept, this prayer as a neutral appeal for enlightenment is pure baloney. She says "Oops! My party, of which I am now a leader, has been pushing this 100% for five years and still does so which no sign of change... but hey by the way, pray we're right and that this is really a genuine holy war, will you?"

[dcmdale]

You don't get into protestant churches much, do you?

Ugh. You are mising the point. A fairer analogy would be a Roman official who decides to feed Christians to lions, keeps it up for five years, and then says, "Oh by the way, Christians, pray that I'm doing God's will." Shouldn't he have asked that five years ago? Isn't the fact that he's still doing it and strenuously advocating the continuation of it proof that he doesn't sincerely question it himself? He's just trying to look good.

Yes. He should have asked the question 5 years ago, and yesterday, and today, and tomorrow. That one has embarked on a path thinking it right does not mean that it is right. Nor does it mean that it is wrong. Nor that it didn't start out right and become wrong. Or any other option. As a prayer, it recognizes the continual need for wise decisions.

*facepalm* This quote was carefully aimed propaganda for the consumption of the Christian elements of the GOP base. Evidently you swallowed it as well.

You don't know me very well.

Belief in God is not an excuse for perceiving wars as black-and-white holy wars instead of deeply cynical (even if occasionally necessary) international struggles for dominance (and political points). Doing so is superlatively dangerous.

Palin *may* believe in black-and-white holy wars. This quote does nothing to demonstrate it.

Sarah Palin was not a (theoretically) neutral pastor. She is part and parcel of the party / political wing which has been pushing this was from the beginning. For her to pass this off, or for you to accept, this prayer as a neutral appeal for enlightenment is pure baloney. She says "Oops! My party, of which I am now a leader, has been pushing this 100% for five years and still does so which no sign of change... but hey by the way, pray we're right and that this is really a genuine holy war, will you?"

I have no doubt that Palin supports the current direction of the war. That does not preclude a prayer that includes humble (even if feigned humility) around not being all-wise. I also don't doubt that she would like there to be wisdom in a successful end to the war.

The context of this prayer is that her son is on his way to Iraq. She is praying for the troops there and for the wisdom of national leadership. There is nothing shocking about that.

[Grimaldi]

Don't mind if I do. "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God."

How you get that bland interpretation from the black-and-white of "a task that is from God" beats me. One would almost think that you're willing to turn a blind eye to the right wing invoking the will of the divine to support wastefully jeopardizing our troops and the health of the military as a whole.

And what, pray tell (oh, I just invoked God, too!), DID Palin mean with her comment? If you could use your psychic powers to confirm it, I'd be most obliged. She could have meant any number of things:

1- It's an old skool Holy War of Christians vs Muslims
2- It's Holy in the sense that our Founding Fathers believed in God-given rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that were formerly forbidden in Iraq and now may have a chance under a democratic government
3- However much you disagree with the timeliness, that the US leadership make the right decision regarding the continued deployment of Solders to Iraq

Other possibilities exist, but those seem the most likely.

On top of all that, to even venture to couch the war in Iraq in terms of a holy war is horrifying even if she were open to the idea that the answer were "no". It is imperative that a politician see a war in terms of the best interest of their country, not in terms of the will of the divine.

Ah, that it is imperative is an opinion, not a fact. You'll note, as mentioned earlier, our Founding Fathers placed a great deal of faith in God in the creation and principals of this nation. Certainly that has fallen from the current views of most politicians, but you'll note religion/spirituality is still a very important issue to most voters, hence the lack of many athiests in Congress.

And, one could argue, the interests of a Judeo-Christan God would, in this case, be fairly similar to those of the US. Peaceful, quick withdraw from Iraq leaving behind a peaceful, moderate, democratic, self-sufficient nation.

She can't go back in time and pray for the past to change...all she can do is attempt to fix the present and future.

[migopod]

Likewise, I saw one today that said:

Hitler was a community organizer. Jesus was a maverick.

Don't you love politics?

I think you'll find that Lucifer was the original maverick and IHVH was the original authoritarian dictator.

[latenight]

I think you'll find that Lucifer was the original maverick and IHVH was the original authoritarian dictator.

Good point!