South Jersey Division

[fdad]

Qualifiers for National Tournaments in South Jersey Division often have relatively few fencers, to the point where in some cases all fencers that register qualify.

The South Jersey Division contains exactly one club (FASJ). This club now has three locations, one in South Jersey Division territory, two in New Jersey Division territory, but the club is affiliated with South Jersey Division.

Is it possible (not asking if its ethical - this is NJ afterall) for someone in New Jersey (North) to join FASJ at one of the northern locations, and join South Jersey Division, since that is where the club is affiliated?

I just know this will incite some folks - but I need to ask anyway ;-) - Perhaps this discussion will get folks ready for the NJ Div election next weekend.

[jeff]

AFAIK you can fence in a club that's physically in one division, but be a member of a different division and qualify from that one. I used to fence for NYFC which was in NYC, but was a member of the NJ division and went to its qualifiers and division championships. I don't think that's changed. Main thing is the division membership of the individual.

[dberke]

Originally Posted by fdad

Qualifiers for National Tournaments in South Jersey Division often have relatively few fencers, to the point where in some cases all fencers that register qualify.

The South Jersey Division contains exactly one club (FASJ). This club now has three locations, one in South Jersey Division territory, two in New Jersey Division territory, but the club is affiliated with South Jersey Division.

Is it possible (not asking if its ethical - this is NJ afterall) for someone in New Jersey (North) to join FASJ at one of the northern locations, and join South Jersey Division, since that is where the club is affiliated?

I just know this will incite some folks - but I need to ask anyway ;-) - Perhaps this discussion will get folks ready for the NJ Div election next weekend.

As I understand it, there is no actual requirement to join the division that your club resides in. I could declare myself a member of the South Jersey division even though I live in Seattle. Of course, if I did that, I'd have to travel to fence in the qualifiers in South Jersey.

I have known a number of fencers who are members of a club in one division while they fence in another division. In all of those cases, the fencer lived in the other division due to work/school but wanted to retain their ties to their home club. Sometimes that was done so that they could represent that club in team events at Nationals.

So, to answer your question, yes, I think people could join FASJ even if they live in northern NJ and still be members of the South NJ division. On the surface there doesn't sound anything unethical about doing so (after all, they are accepting having to do more travel for qualifiers) but I guess that's not really for me to judge...

Dan

[fdad]

I understand the fact that you can choose to register in either the division where you reside, or the division where your club is located. This is the special case where a club has three locations. If you join the club and only use the North Jersey location, can you still join South Jersey division since the club is affiliated with South Jersey. Anyone can tell you that qualifying from South Jersey divsion is relatively easy compared to qualifying from (North) New Jersey.
EDIT: South Jersey is a one club division, and that club has two of its three locations outside the division boundry.

[oiuyt]

Mr. Ma Fencing Center (in Fairfiled, NJ) and Mr. Ma Fencing USA (Hillsborough) are NJ Division clubs.

FASJ (Cherry Hill) is a South Jersey club.

Technically they are three separate clubs owned/run by the same person. Belonging to one of the first two is not sufficient to fit the criteria to be eligible for membership in the South Jersey Division. Belonging to FASJ would, regardless of where you live.

Dan- You have to live, go to school in, or belong to a club in the division you are a member of. Assuming you don't have an affiliation to FASJ that I'm unaware of you would NOT be eligible to be a member of South Jersey Division.

-B

[fdad]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Mr. Ma Fencing Center (in Fairfiled, NJ) and Mr. Ma Fencing USA (Hillsborough) are NJ Division clubs.

FASJ (Cherry Hill) is a South Jersey club.

OK thanks - I guess what threw me off is that they all use the same website (FASJ.com), have the same coaches, etc. and the form that you fill out to register does not indicate which "club" you are joining.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by fdad

OK thanks - I guess what threw me off is that they all use the same website (FASJ.com), have the same coaches, etc. and the form that you fill out to register does not indicate which "club" you are joining.

Not being a member (despite being a member of the Division), I can't tell you how things are organized. It's quite possible that they are internally treated as a single club and that you could join FASJ and only participate in Hillsborough. In which case you would be eligible for membership in the South Jersey Division (or, assuming that you live in Northern NJ, New Jersey Division).

If you represent Mr. Ma Fencing, USA (and again assuming that you live in New Jersey Division territory and don't attend a school in another area) you would only be eligible for New Jersey Division.

-B

[fdad]

Based on the information available on the FASJ website, I can join FASJ (South Jersey Divsion) and never set foot inside the Cherry Hill (FASJ) club, attending only the new Mr. Ma Fencing Center (in North Jersey) for my money. I can then go to South Jersey Division qualifiers. I guess this is almost no different from joining a club in one of the other small divisions and just never going to it, while joining a second club locally where I really would fence.

[dberke]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Dan- You have to live, go to school in, or belong to a club in the division you are a member of. Assuming you don't have an affiliation to FASJ that I'm unaware of you would NOT be eligible to be a member of South Jersey Division.

-B

Brad,

Thanks for the clarification... I guess I hadn't considered that detail.

However, to play devil's advocate, there's nothing stopping me from declaring my club affiliation as FASJ while living here in Seattle, even though I never have had any affiliation with them. Or are there controls that I'm not aware of to prevent me from doing that?

Dan

[fencerX]

Originally Posted by dberke

However, to play devil's advocate, there's nothing stopping me from declaring my club affiliation as FASJ while living here in Seattle, even though I never have had any affiliation with them. Or are there controls that I'm not aware of to prevent me from doing that?

Yes, it can and does happen. But is it really such a big deal that it's worth spending energy on? Especially since there's no easy way for fencers and clubs to even see what the USFA has down for a member's club?

And didn't someone on the BoD push a motion related to clubs being able to overrule fencers' stated representations? A motion that really didn't go anywhere?

[fdad]

So what I think you are saying is that someone can claim to be a member of a club when they register for USFA membership, in order to affiliate in a specific division, but not actually be a member of that club. They can then qualify from that division and no one can tell? Since all divisions are not equal wrt how hard it is to qualify, seems like this is broken, but not sure how to fix it.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by dberke

However, to play devil's advocate, there's nothing stopping me from declaring my club affiliation as FASJ while living here in Seattle, even though I never have had any affiliation with them. Or are there controls that I'm not aware of to prevent me from doing that?

You mean like:

Originally Posted by 2007-07 BOD Special Meeting - Minutes

Motion (Mr. Baker): When the relationship between an athlete and a USFA club is dissolved by either party, either party may request that the change be reflected in the USFA membership database. Except in extraordinary circumstances, and with approval of the Board, this action would result in the fencer competing unattached for the remainder of the current season. (This should be reflected in the operations manual. Authorize the national office to create a procedure and deadline for implementation.)Motion: approved.

Technically what you're describing is not the dissolution of a relationship, but the complete lack of one to start with. What you've described came up during the discussion of this motion as something it was intended to prevent (although FC or PWF was the example club).

I don't know what, if any, procedures were set up by the National Office to comply with this Board directive. That said, if there were a complaint filed that you (or anyone else) were trying to abuse the representation loophole I suspect the gap, if any, would be filled in rather quickly and your representation would be stripped.

-B

[fdad]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

That said, if there were a complaint filed that you (or anyone else) were trying to abuse the representation loophole I suspect the gap, if any, would be filled in rather quickly and your representation would be stripped.

Thanks for your insite into this topic - I've learned a lot. It seems like in order for the deception to be detected, it would require access to information (home address, declared club affiliation, club membership list) that does not seem to be available all in one place.

[KD5MDK]

Well, the National Office would have it all, except for the club membership. Same with Division or Section officers.

[fdad]

Except for club membership - and the club would not have any way of knowing that you claimed to be a member - right?

[KD5MDK]

They could look at competition results. Local competitions often display club affiliation.

[fdad]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

They could look at competition results. Local competitions often display club affiliation.

I can put anything into askfred.

[telkanuru]

Sorry, I just needed a place for this.

[AndrewH]

I'm sorry, I think you have us confused with Staten Island.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by fdad

Thanks for your insite into this topic - I've learned a lot. It seems like in order for the deception to be detected, it would require access to information (home address, declared club affiliation, club membership list) that does not seem to be available all in one place.

Depends on to which deception you refer.

Fencer X listing Club C without having any real relationship with Club C:
Club C notices (Fencer X enters any competition including the qualifiers or a national tournament) and can file to have the relationship severed.

Fencer Y joining Club B to gain eligibility in Division D:
There's no deception involved. It fits all of the rules. Can absolutely be used to game the system to some extent.

Fencer Z lists as Division E without living there, belonging to a club there, or attending school there:
The National Office can sometimes notice this. I know of an unattached fencer who, while living in South Jersey, worked in Pennsylvania and wanted to represent Philadelphia Division. She was not allowed to until she "joined" a club in the division (officially, and with permission from the club). I suspect that most such cases are never noticed.

-B