Forget Lexan ...A Real Safety Concern

[Rick Shellhouse]

Ok Lets start a new thread here...

Lets discuss the blatantly unsafe policy the USFA has adopted that having no restrictions on clothing is better than having a official policy...

How as a coach, vendor, armorer or parent do you feel about the fact the Europeans have had a standard policy of 350N for club use and 800N for competitions while a fencer can compete in a national event in a homemade cotton uniform here in the US?


Lets go a step further...

There is no review or testing policy for clothing despite normal clothing wears out under far less stringent use....


Jump on in...

R

[To_The_Point]

It's none of anyone's business what people wear fencing at a club, but the club.

If a organization wants to make regulations for sanctioned events, fine. But the people outside a club have no business telling you what you can and cannot wear.

[Guymelef]

Is it really as bad as you say?

The USFA rules do outline general safety specifications for clothing (m.25 and Appendix A). I know the biggest departure between domestic compeitions and international is that we don't require the FIE rating on the plastron. That certainly would be a concern as any litigant can use that.

Has anyone seen a home-made uniform being used?

[Rick Shellhouse]

It's none of anyone's business what people wear fencing at a club, but the club.

If a organization wants to make regulations for sanctioned events, fine. But the people outside a club have no business telling you what you can and cannot wear.

Actually....

In order for a club to be covered by the USFA insurance full fencing kit must be worn ....


So the USFA already does state what you can or cant wear IF you want the insurance in fact valid...

So if you are at a club bouting in shorts and a blade breaks and stabs your leg unless the club has secondary insurance other than the USFA insurance...

Now if your club does not have secondary insurance...then there would be no coverage for someone hurt wearing shorts or less than full fencing kit


R

[To_The_Point]

Now I can agree with that, what I was trying to say was a club can fence with what they want to.

Now if they are covered by USFA insurance, sure the USFA can decide what the stipulations will be. That is fair.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Is it really as bad as you say?

The USFA rules do outline general safety specifications for clothing (m.25 and Appendix A). I know the biggest departure between domestic compeitions and international is that we don't require the FIE rating on the plastron. That certainly would be a concern as any litigant can use that.

Has anyone seen a home-made uniform being used?

A homemade uniform is the far end of the spectrum ...

Cotton uniforms that require no quality control is far more the norm..

R

[Hauptman]

I see many discussions on equipment safety, but I would really like to see some (any?) statistics.

How many people have died from a fencing injury in the last 100 years?

Ok, so not many deaths... how many significant injuries have occurred?

Or how about how many lawsuits/settlements/payments have resulted from injuries occurring in a club?

And finally, how many of these injuries resulted from faulty/inadequate equipment?

Ideally everyone should have the best possible protection, but there is a price point after which you don't get much added safety for your dollar. Without some hard numbers these discussions become pointless.

[Guymelef]

This is from an article in a 1993 Fencing Magazine. As you can see there is a lot concern about the lower extremities like knees and ankles. You will see that puncture wounds are about 1 in 20 within a sample of 1,246 in a one year period.

1,246 fencers reported on worst career injury.

• Knee (19%) and ankle (14%) problems were most common; again, as would be expected muscle strain (22%) and joint sprain (22%) were the most frequently reported type of injury (similar to report of worst injury within the last year).

• 61 fencers (approximately 1 in 20) listed a puncture wound as their most serious career injury; wounds were delivered to the face, neck, chest and abdomen as well as to the arms and legs.

• The causes of injury were (again) attributed to a wide variety of behavioral factors (60%) and problems with equipment and facilities (28%).

• Problems with strips and shoes, and with poor technique and inadequate warm-up were (again) noted.

• Approximately 12% of most serious career injuries are attributed to the behavior of others (most notably dangerous tactics by opponent), similar results were obtained for most serious injury within the last year.

Summary

The results of the USFA Injury Survey lead to the following conclusions:

• Although the general medical literature suggests that fencing injuries occur at a relatively low rate (in comparison to other directly competitive sports), fencing injuries have a negative impact on the success of a significant number of fencers and hence on the sport of fencing.

• Greater than half of all injuries are to the lower extremities, most commonly knees and ankles.

• A wide variety of problems with equipment and facilities plus behavioral factors contribute to injury.

• Factors under personal control such as warm-up and technique significantly contribute to injury.

• Strips appear to be a significant cause of injury.

• Behavior of others (most typically dangerous tactics by opponent) are also reported as a significant cause of injury.

Conclusions

The results of the Injury Survey provide direction for reducing injury frequency and severity among fencers. Of primary concern is the interface of the fencer and the floor. This is reflected in the relatively high proportion of knee, ankle and other lower extremity injuries which appear to be due to problems with strips and shoes. A series of related recommendations follows:

• Identify those strips in current use that are safest (resilient surface, adequate traction or friction; proper anchoring) and make these more widely available. NOTE: Concrete surfaces are assumed to exceed the limit of acceptable hardness, based on preliminary data.

• Re-evaluate the design of elevated strips for increased safety.

• Conduct research to improve the quality of strips while maintaining affordability.

• Develop guidelines for materials, performance, and procedures for proper anchoring of strips.

• Continue research already begun on footwear.

The personal concern expressed by fencers regarding puncture wounds is noteworthy. This supports the value of continuing research already underway on personal equipment (masks and body padding) as well as on non-destructive evaluation of blades and new composite blade structures. The results of this survey along with previous research by Julie Moyer (see below for more information) are a good beginning to a better understanding of fencing injuries. Survey research in which fencers retrospectively report injuries have inherent limits. To continue to better serve the needs of fencers additional research is necessary including prospective research where the relationship between injuries and their causes is monitored on an ongoing basis.

Source: http://www.capefearfencing.com/Board...opic.php?id=41

[oiuyt]

The USFA rules do outline general safety specifications for clothing (m.25 and Appendix A). I know the biggest departure between domestic compeitions and international is that we don't require the FIE rating on the plastron. That certainly would be a concern as any litigant can use that.

Not requiring an FIE rating on the plastron is hardly the largest departure in standards. Rick is correct that currently the US rules require that the uniform be made of "robust" material. That's the standard.

In order for a club to be covered by the USFA insurance full fencing kit must be worn ....

[citation needed]

If a student is injured in my USFA member club during an individual lesson while wearing proper attire or not, am I covered? The club activity must be sanctioned by the USFA in order for coverage to apply. Clubs who have elected coverage and individual member coaches are covered. There are no restrictions with regard to proper attire; however, this raises the likelihood of a potential injury and negligence which could increase the chances for an injury that could result in a liability claim.

Source: USFencing Insurance FAQ

Rick- Note that SOME European countries require 350N for practice and 800N for competition. Others require 800N at all times. I beleive others have different requirements for different age groups. It's quite possible that yet others have differing standards that don't fall into any of those groupings.

If you're concerned with further pursuing this line of conversation (which I know you are), something that would be beneficial would be a systematic cataloging of what standards are currently required by a significant number of countries.

-B

[keith]

Ok, so not many deaths... how many significant injuries have occurred?

Or how about how many lawsuits/settlements/payments have resulted from injuries occurring in a club?

The trouble is that, compared to a severe ankle or knee injury, the average puncture wound while very messy is easily treated and recovered from.*


The thing is that while puncture wounds are rare, and lethal ones rarer still, they are avoidable injuries if fencers wear appropriate safety equipment


*Unless of course a major artery is cut in which case you will be dead before the ambulance arrives.

[BenTheEMOP]

There are three deaths that I know of worldwide in Fencing over the past 100 years. (I saw a statistic that said 8 at one point, but I don't know for sure.)

Vladimir Smirnov, whose death is mentioned during all the mask discussions.

In 2004, a 17-year-old Ukrainian foil fencer died of a punctured lung from a broken foil that went through his jacket.

Here is the FNET discussion on that:

When you're not happy about fencing making news:(

Also, apparently there was a Japanese fencer killed in 2005. The odd part was that all the gear seemed to be in order, including the foil (i.e. it was not broken.

Difficult to Explain Mie Prefecture Fencing Death


Westbrook's book describes how he pierced a training partner through a jacket with a sabre and how his coach stabbed him trhough the neck.

Also, this thread has anecdotes and links to a study that has some stats. The one study shows that jackets are involved in about .8% of the injuries.

Thread:

Craziest Accidents On The Strip

Study:

http://www.exra.org/FencingChptr.htm

(This is the study that Guymelef references, I just noticed.)


Hope that provides some useful data.

[Purple Fencer]

In 2004, a 17-year-old Ukrainian foil fencer died of a punctured lung from a broken foil that went through his jacket.

Didn't someone on this board find that he;d actually cut the sleeve off his underarm protector because it was bunching up? That would remove the preotection, so when the blade went through the jacket, there was nothing else in the way....which is WHY the U/P is there!

[HDG]

Didn't someone on this board find that he;d actually cut the sleeve off his underarm protector because it was bunching up? That would remove the preotection, so when the blade went through the jacket, there was nothing else in the way....which is WHY the U/P is there!

Don't sully things with your facts.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Didn't someone on this board find that he;d actually cut the sleeve off his underarm protector because it was bunching up? That would remove the preotection, so when the blade went through the jacket, there was nothing else in the way....which is WHY the U/P is there!

Come on Sam...

You are one of the anti lexan screamer....due to the safety concerns


What do you think of the uniform situation?

Rick

[Guymelef]

Okay, back on topic. None of the fatalities occurred in the US or a USFA event. Given the USFA's wanton disregard of standards--I'm being hyperbolic--has it been lucky for so long?

The cotton jackets, while not exactly a bullet-proof vest, do provide a degree of protection. Canvas has a long and illustrious history of being a strong material. It captured the wind and provided propulsion aboard ships. It provided lift for the early days of flight.

I know most college and university clubs use cotton jackets (we did). In my three-and-a-half years involved with my university club I never saw a jacket get punctured. Those smelly things were God knows how old. At my current club there are a lot of squishies and they're fencing in communal cottons.

Nevertheless, things are not perfect. The USFA can and should provide more guidance than the word 'robust.' There should be a puncture rating on all jackets and maybe referees should be required to check it. Still, I don't think cotton jackets should be abandoned all together.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Nevertheless, things are not perfect. The USFA can and should provide more guidance than the word 'robust.' There should be a puncture rating on all jackets and maybe referees should be required to check it. Still, I don't think cotton jackets should be abandoned all together.

I agree....use robust cotton in clubs....but competitions should be 350N minimum.....you are competing at a higher level....


R

[KD5MDK]

Why is a 350N standard acceptable? Why isn't 800N the minimum acceptable? For that matter, what evidence is there that 800N is the most appropriate number and 600N wouldn't be sufficient or 1200N is the real place where it becomes noticably safer?

[keith]

Why is a 350N standard acceptable? Why isn't 800N the minimum acceptable? For that matter, what evidence is there that 800N is the most appropriate number and 600N wouldn't be sufficient or 1200N is the real place where it becomes noticably safer?

Absolutely, and what pray tell is wrong with stout fabric? I concede that flimsy or diaphanous would be inappropriate but even sturdy should be minimally acceptable.

[Purple Fencer]

Come on Sam...

You are one of the anti lexan screamer....due to the safety concerns


What do you think of the uniform situation?

Rick

Sorry...I was out doing some shipping.

I agree that using the word "robust" is weak sauce...I would like to see a 350N standardfor gear used in the US...I believe much of the gear from the major suppliers DOES meet this standard, even though it has not been tested to that level....it would help if a testing facility could be found in the US that wouldn't cost vendors an arm and a leg to get the testing done. That's PART of what maked FIE kit so expensive over here (in addition to the cost of the material itself and the import duties on completed textiles, which are HUGE)

[D'Artagnan1673]

If I recall correctly, we had a foreign exchange student from Germany who told me that clubs in Germany require FIE 800NW gear just to fence at the club, not compete. My coach as also indicated that Italy uses FIE 800NW uniforms in their clubs as a standard as well. I am sure oneone with more time and better resources can compile a definitive list.

Personally, I see it as a no brainer to purchase an FIE uniform. Not only are they of higher quality, but you cannot undo what you are wearing in the event of a broken blade accident. I see no reason to chance it.

Finally, and this is the real kicker to my argument, the FIE shield tells everyone that you are a high calibre fencer...