Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

veeco · 08-23-2008, 12:52 PM

So did anyone notice that both gold medalists in men's and women's pentathlon won the fencing event as well?

In fact, the american woman, Sheila Taormina, did great in all three events of swimming, show jumping, and running, winning 2 of them, but her dismal showing in fencing (last place with 4 bouts won), put her way out of contention for medals. Had she fenced a little better, she would've been on the medal stand.

So for those who say that being a great pentathlete only requires good swimming and running, take notice, it's not sufficient. Being a brilliant pentathlete means you need to be a brilliant fencer, apparently!

noodle · 08-23-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeco

So did anyone notice that both gold medalists in men's and women's pentathlon won the fencing event as well?

In fact, the american woman, Sheila Taormina, did great in all three events of swimming, show jumping, and running, winning 2 of them, but her dismal showing in fencing (last place with 4 bouts won), put her way out of contention for medals. Had she fenced a little better, she would've been on the medal stand.

So for those who say that being a great pentathlete only requires good swimming and running, take notice, it's not sufficient. Being a brilliant pentathlete means you need to be a brilliant fencer, apparently!

the largest possible point gain in the pentathalon is in the swimming, iirc.

if you do moderately well in fencing but excel in swimming, you get way more points than the inverse.

so, train to do well in all, but train to excel in swimming and you win.

rdg · 08-23-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeco

So did anyone notice that both gold medalists in men's and women's pentathlon won the fencing event as well?

In fact, the american woman, Sheila Taormina, did great in all three events of swimming, show jumping, and running, winning 2 of them, but her dismal showing in fencing (last place with 4 bouts won), put her way out of contention for medals. Had she fenced a little better, she would've been on the medal stand.

So for those who say that being a great pentathlete only requires good swimming and running, take notice, it's not sufficient. Being a brilliant pentathlete means you need to be a brilliant fencer, apparently!

I watched a tiny bit of the pentathlon fencing, and it sure looks different from our fencing. With only one touch and 1 minute, there wasn't much time for setup and strategy. What I saw was a quick flick to the wrist, and it was over. Not unlike fencing you Veeco.

Sam

Inquartata · 08-23-2008, 06:50 PM

Let's teach Michael Phelps to fence.

Neinteen · 08-23-2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Let's teach Michael Phelps to fence.

I hear he doesn't like to use the shift key, you might not be the best mentor.

Inquartata · 08-23-2008, 06:59 PM

The fencing in Pentathlon is epee anyway.

Are you SURE you actually fence?

Neinteen · 08-23-2008, 07:29 PM

I'm pretty sure I do. Haven't in so long. Summer Vacation = dead fencing.

Are you sure you're still alive?

veeco · 08-23-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodle

the largest possible point gain in the pentathalon is in the swimming, iirc.

if you do moderately well in fencing but excel in swimming, you get way more points than the inverse.

so, train to do well in all, but train to excel in swimming and you win.

Well that's the theory; in practice, both gold medalists did better by being moderately good in swimming and excelling in fencing. That's the point I was trying to make: perhaps being too good in swimming (swimming requires _a_ _lot_ of practice to excel at) is so detrimental to the other sports that you lose a significant advantage. Also, fencing being the only sport in pentathlon where you have the ability to affect not only your score, but the other competitor's scores might have a significant effect.

I don't claim my "research" to be sound: I only looked at the results from this year's olympiad, but looking at the average swim times of the pentathletes, I can't help but be surprised by how slow they are. If swimming was the greatest deciding factor, I'd imagine the swim times would be better.

veeco · 08-23-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Let's teach Michael Phelps to fence.

long arms, strong core, flexible joints, on paper, he's got all it takes...

veeco · 08-23-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdg

I watched a tiny bit of the pentathlon fencing, and it sure looks different from our fencing. With only one touch and 1 minute, there wasn't much time for setup and strategy. What I saw was a quick flick to the wrist, and it was over. Not unlike fencing you Veeco.

Sam

One minute is a lot of time to setup one touch! I agree that the whole "one touch" thing does remove a lot of the strategic element, as in "he hit me this way last time, so I'm going to do this instead", but I don't know how this works, perhaps one can gain a significant amount of information from looking at a competitor's previous bouts?

BCEagle21 · 08-25-2008, 12:25 AM

How does one even get started in the Modern Pentathalon? They are about as vague as the USFA are on their qualifications. Do they have Pentathalon tournaments?

DHCJr · 08-25-2008, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodle

the largest possible point gain in the pentathalon is in the swimming, iirc.

if you do moderately well in fencing but excel in swimming, you get way more points than the inverse.

so, train to do well in all, but train to excel in swimming and you win.

Not always. In fact almost never.

Take for example the '83 Jr. Worlds. Between 1st & 8th there was less points between the 2 then the points given for each win at Fencing.

So, if the 8th place finisher had won one more bout, they would not only have gotten a medal, they would have had a Gold!

In the Olympics, this is even more true, because there are a lot less competitors than there is at a Worlds.

All the other parts are based on how well you do, so if you get the same time or score no matter who is there you will get the same points. Fencing points are based on the number of competitors.

For 75 competitors every bout won or lost from 70% is worth 12 points. For 25 competitors it doubles to 24 points.

In swimming each second up or down from the 'optimal' time is worth 12 points.

Yes, the Swimming gets the most points. The trouble is everyone gets those high points. The difference between 1st & last (36th) in this Men's Olympic is only 248 point. If you were 24th in Fencing you would further from the top.

The event that can make or break you is really the luck of the draw in Riding. If you fall or don't complete you get 0. That is over 4 times the distance of Swimming. You are behind 1,172 points. Try making that amount up considering the difference between 1st and last for all other events combined is only 1,340.

That is why both riders who got 0 in riding ended up in 35th & 36th.

The order of the events based on the difference of being the best and being the worst is Riding, Fencing, Shooting, Running and at the end Swimming.

Gold Wannabe · 08-25-2008, 02:34 PM

In order to win in Modern Pentathlon, your two WORST sports should be running and swimming. If you go to NBCOlympics.com and click on Modern Pentathlon, watch the men's riding segment. It would be funny if it weren't so sad....and these guys were picked to represent their countries in the Olympics, so they're no slouches in the sport.

But if your best sports are running and swimming (which is true for most people) then it would be next to impossible to win...you could do well, but not win, nor likely even medal.

As for competitions, there are four main events...the Olympics, of course, then the World Championships, World Cup, and World Tour. As for local events, you would have to check that out for yourself, but you will likely not find many. You will most likely have to train yourself, by yourself, unless you can get into, or start, a local club. I found that it was relatively easy to practice all five events, but had to do them individually....work out with a local swim club, the local riding club, the local shooting club...etc. It's also easier that way to get help from coaches. I work on my running with my two Siberian Huskies...they can still beat me thought so I apparently need more work. You can contact the US Olympic team to check on participating in any stateside competitions...they'll have all the info.

Pentathaqueen · 08-29-2008, 11:56 AM

From personal experience, fencing is not the most important pentathlon sport. The silver medalist at nationals won the fencing and the swimming in her division, placing 3rd in the shooting, and still didn't manage to win the gold.

Fencing is definitely important, but so are all 5 sports. so I would edit the title of this thread, If you want to win gold in Pentathlon, you've got to be a shooter/fencer/swimmer/rider. Running can be made up if you have a good enough point total from the previous 4.

KD5MDK · 08-29-2008, 01:08 PM

I'll have to ask John Moreau what he thinks of this.

campb1pr · 08-29-2008, 03:32 PM

[non serious posting]

And here I thought this thread was referring to the Sheldon comic strip from this last Monday...

[/non serious posting]

wwalkerjr · 08-29-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeco

long arms, strong core, flexible joints, on paper, he's got all it takes...

Can he SCREAM?

Inquartata · 08-29-2008, 08:38 PM

Meh, are you the only person on the planet who has not seen the footage of him after that one relay race?

lefty_monster · 08-29-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Meh, are you the only person on the planet who has not seen the footage of him after that one relay race?

Raise your hand if you think that they used that piece of footage WAAAY too much.

*hand up*

DHCJr · 08-30-2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pentathaqueen

From personal experience, fencing is not the most important pentathlon sport. The silver medalist at nationals won the fencing and the swimming in her division, placing 3rd in the shooting, and still didn't manage to win the gold.

Fencing is definitely important, but so are all 5 sports. so I would edit the title of this thread, If you want to win gold in Pentathlon, you've got to be a shooter/fencer/swimmer/rider. Running can be made up if you have a good enough point total from the previous 4.

How did they do on the riding. If you blow the riding (which can be luck of the draw) you can't win a medal let alone Gold even if you get first in all other events.

At the '83 Jr. Worlds after the riding there was nearly have the competitors were tied for 1st place. There were that many perfect records. They have changed the rules since then so that doesn't happen now. There were also a lot tied for last place with 0 points after the ride.

At the end the top 8 came from those who tied in the ride. The difference between 1st & 8th was less than the points given for each and every touch. If the 8th place finisher had one more fencing win they would have had the Gold.

As